Online petition over library ebook embargo

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by pwalker8

It's always fascinating how people hold on to this narrative, no matter how many times it's shown to be false. Those smaller online eBook stores mostly either folded or sold themselves to a larger company before agency pricing occurred.

Apple started agency pricing in the Spring of 2010. Most of the small companies that people point to either were already out of business or had sold themselves. Agency pricing got shutdown by Judge Coe in the Summer of 2013. Amazon had 75% of the ebook market at that point.

Within a couple of years Amazon was back at 95% of the market. Guess what, once Amazon didn't have to worry about other eBook stores, they stopped caring about low prices and signed contracts with the various publishers giving them agency pricing.

Both BooksOnBoard and Fictionwise went out of business after agency. Sure, some went out before then. One of those that went out of business sold only Mobipocket format eBook and another sold only eReader format eBooks.

Yes Fictionwise was bought by B&N. But B&N did not close them down right away. Fictionwise closed because there were losing money because of agency.

If you think most eBook stores went out of business before agency, please tell us which ones went out of business before agency that sold ePub. Other fornats such as Mobo, eReader, and Lit were dead.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by Gardenman

One thing that has not been talked about yet. What about the person who reads a library book and likes the author so much they go and buy other books the author has written. Without the library book those sales would not have happened

I have borrowed eBooks form the library that I've read and enjoyed that I would never have bought because I didn't know enough about the author and the book seemed like it might be interesting.

And then there have been eBooks I've borrowed from the library that I did not like that I'm glad I didn't pay for.

[MGlitch]

Originally Posted by murraypaul

The competition includes Google and Apple. Not exactly short on funds themselves.

What makes books special snowflakes that can't be treated like any other good?
It applies just as much to shoes, or ketchup, or phones.

Whereas we know that fixed price arrangements lead to higher prices.
That is why they are almost always illegal, and why the eBook contracts are arranged as agency agreements, because otherwise it would be illegal price maintenance.

Yeah we’ll just ignore Barnes and Noble, kobo, and any other retailer still around in other countries. Also take a look at pdwalkers post. Amazon seems to be doing exactly what I said they would even under the agency model. And you think that this is going to change if we remove agency?

Good grief.

[MGlitch]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

Both BooksOnBoard and Fictionwise went out of business after agency. Sure, some went out before then. One of those that went out of business sold only Mobipocket format eBook and another sold only eReader format eBooks.

Yes Fictionwise was bought by B&N. But B&N did not close them down right away. Fictionwise closed because there were losing money because of agency.

If you think most eBook stores went out of business before agency, please tell us which ones went out of business before agency that sold ePub. Other fornats such as Mobo, eReader, and Lit were dead.

Fictionwise was bought out well before agency, and was thus clearly not doing well, you assert they folded because of agency but only cite that they were shut down after agency pricing had been established, and was being contested.

Hardly damning evidence of agency putting the smaller sellers out of business, since though FictionWise may have been a smaller seller before the buyout they were part of a larger seller before and during agency pricing.

As to BooksOnBoard, I'd be willing to bet not paying publishers would lead to those publishers being rather displeased with you. Again hardly the smoking gun for agency being the nail in BoB.

Of course this ignores that the initial statement was smaller sellers had mostly gone under or been bought out before agency pricing. A point you gloss over as you move the goalposts.

[MGlitch]

Originally Posted by Gardenman

One thing that has not been talked about yet. What about the person who reads a library book and likes the author so much they go and buy other books the author has written. Without the library book those sales would not have happened

Yes, and I'm sure the publishers factor this creation of future sales in to their decision making.

I think most of us, with the exception of Jon who thinks a business making a bad decision to collude means they forever do not know what they're doing, would agree the publishers know how to run a business. Otherwise they would not be in business.

And for the record I'm not trying to set libraries up as the villains in this whole situation. Only that having to wait 90 days in order to purchase multiple licenses for ebooks which are available for purchase, poses a significant threat to the well being of the book reading populace. It will be an inconvenience for some sure, but they will still have the ability to read the book for free.

[Skydog]

Originally Posted by Apache

I do not feel that someone else should be able to tell me that I have to sell something I purchased for a specific price. I actually refuse to by merchandise from vendors that think they can dictate the retail price to me. If I want to give a someone, that has been a loyal customer for years, a discount then the loss is mine not the vendor. The vendor got the price they wanted from me. I will then sell the product for a price that I determine is fair. If I make the wrong decision on price then I am the one that suffers the consequences of my actions.
Apache

Exactly right! I could not agree more!

[MGlitch]

Originally Posted by Apache

I do not feel that someone else should be able to tell me that I have to sell something I purchased for a specific price. I actually refuse to by merchandise from vendors that think they can dictate the retail price to me. If I want to give a someone, that has been a loyal customer for years, a discount then the loss is mine not the vendor. The vendor got the price they wanted from me. I will then sell the product for a price that I determine is fair. If I make the wrong decision on price then I am the one that suffers the consequences of my actions.
Apache

Which works for your business as jeweler. There are multiple sources for gemstones and precious metals.

There's only one source for George RR Martin books. The goods provided can not be exactly duplicated by another provider.

[leebase]

Originally Posted by Gardenman

One thing that has not been talked about yet. What about the person who reads a library book and likes the author so much they go and buy other books the author has written. Without the library book those sales would not have happened

That's the theory. That's also why "frictionless borrowing" is a problem. Why go buy the books and not just check them out on your library app? It's just as easy as buying the book via your book app....and it's "free".

All the publisher's are trying to do is protect that initial window where the majority of a books' sales occur.

Amazon was faced with the same choice. The publishers were not going to stand for Amazon's "every bestseller $9.95 all the time"...because it was going to change the public's perception of the value of a new book.

So Amazon had a choice. Either give up control of pricing...or have new ebooks withheld for a 3 month window. Amazon chose to give up pricing control in order to get ebooks at the same time as the release of the hard back.

Libraries know that if their patrons don't have the perception of "most any popular book at release" then folks will reduce their use of libraries.

[Apache]

Originally Posted by MGlitch

Which works for your business as jeweler. There are multiple sources for gemstones and precious metals.

There's only one source for George RR Martin books. The goods provided can not be exactly duplicated by another provider.

Gemstone Dealers, Diamond Dealers and companies selling precious metals and findings (parts) do not dictate what prices we have to charge. They do have suggested prices, but they in no way demand that I sell at that price. It is in finished goods vendors that you will find some trying to dictate the retail price.

I think that publishers should be willing to sell their books for what ever they can get for them. I do not think they should demand that the retailers have to sell at a specific price. If they are going to do that they might as well just sell at retail and cut out the booksellers.
What if grocery stores had to sell their products at a price set by the wholesaler? Everybody would pay the same price for their groceries no matter where you shopped or lived.
Apache

[MGlitch]

Originally Posted by Apache

Gemstone Dealers, Diamond Dealers and companies selling precious metals and findings (parts) do not dictate what prices we have to charge. They do have suggested prices, but they in no way demand that I sell at that price. It is in finished goods vendors that you will find some trying to dictate the retail price.

I think that publishers should be willing to sell their books for what ever they can get for them. I do not think they should demand that the retailers have to sell at a specific price. If they are going to do that they might as well just sell at retail and cut out the booksellers.
What if grocery stores had to sell their products at a price set by the wholesaler? Everybody would pay the same price for their groceries no matter where you shopped or lived.
Apache

Ok, that changes nothing though. The end product you buy and sell can be reproduced by others. The same goes for food, except food also comes with an additional issue in that it’s essential for our survival. Neither jewelry nor books are.

[John F]

Originally Posted by MGlitch

Fictionwise was bought out well before agency, and was thus clearly not doing well, you assert they folded because of agency but only cite that they were shut down after agency pricing had been established, and was being contested.
...

Could you elaborate on your "thus"? A lot of companies get bought out, and it doesn't necessarily follow/mean that they were failing.

As I recall, fictionwise was purchased more for their IP than for their ebook store.

[Apache]

Originally Posted by MGlitch

Ok, that changes nothing though. The end product you buy and sell can be reproduced by others. The same goes for food, except food also comes with an additional issue in that it’s essential for our survival. Neither jewelry nor books are.

So can the end product of books. You do not have to read George R.R. Martin. You seem to equate books as being different from everything else. There isn't any difference between books and any other commodity.
Apache

[leebase]

Books aren’t a commodity. Dune is not the same as Gone With the Wind. Milk is a commodity.

[pwalker8]

Originally Posted by Apache

Gemstone Dealers, Diamond Dealers and companies selling precious metals and findings (parts) do not dictate what prices we have to charge. They do have suggested prices, but they in no way demand that I sell at that price. It is in finished goods vendors that you will find some trying to dictate the retail price.

I think that publishers should be willing to sell their books for what ever they can get for them. I do not think they should demand that the retailers have to sell at a specific price. If they are going to do that they might as well just sell at retail and cut out the booksellers.
What if grocery stores had to sell their products at a price set by the wholesaler? Everybody would pay the same price for their groceries no matter where you shopped or lived.
Apache

Very few goods use an agency price model. The agency price model was adopted because Amazon was using the profit in their other lines of business to subsidize selling e-books at below cost in order to set a price point, something they could do with their overwhelming share of the ebook market. As I pointed out, once Amazon had driven much of their competition out of the market, they were quite willing to let publishers set the price.

I also pointed out that the books not being sold under an agency contract have a price point fairly close to the agency price, which tells me that's pretty much the market price point for most ebooks.

[murraypaul]

Originally Posted by MGlitch

Which works for your business as jeweler. There are multiple sources for gemstones and precious metals.

There's only one source for George RR Martin books. The goods provided can not be exactly duplicated by another provider.

That is exactly true for pBooks as well, yet they are sold as normal items.
Agency pricing for eBooks exists because it is technologically (and therefore legally) possible. The publishers would prefer to fix prices for pBooks as well, as they used to do, but it is illegal to do so through fixed retail pricing. The law has not caught up with the technology.