Online petition over library ebook embargo

[Sarmat89]

I would extend that embargo to 6 or 12 months, like it is with movies and TV. Libraries have crappy DRM, so the people borrowing the recent bestseller are more than likely to leak it to pirates.

[DNSB]

Originally Posted by Sarmat89

I would extend that embargo to 6 or 12 months, like it is with movies and TV. Libraries have crappy DRM, so the people borrowing the recent bestseller are more than likely to leak it to pirates.

Interesting claim about crappy DRM. The libraries in this area use the same Adobe ADEPT DRM as those who are selling DRMed epub books. From a question a while back, American libraries lending Kindle books have them fulfilled by Amazon with the same DRM Amazon uses for their sales and loans.

As for LCP? I haven't seen any DRM removal tools for LCP but if it becomes popular, I suspect DRM removal tools will not be far behind.

So enquiring minds are eager to know exactly how do libraries have crappy DRM?

[MGlitch]

Originally Posted by DNSB

Interesting claim about crappy DRM. The libraries in this area use the same Adobe ADEPT DRM as those who are selling DRMed epub books. From a question a while back, American libraries lending Kindle books have them fulfilled by Amazon with the same DRM Amazon uses for their sales and loans.

As for LCP? I haven't seen any DRM removal tools for LCP but if it becomes popular, I suspect DRM removal tools will not be far behind.

So enquiring minds are eager to know exactly how do libraries have crappy DRM?

I think the point is that the DRM libraries use is so easily stripped and they’re free to get. So pirates are getting something for nothing.


I don’t really agree with this since it only takes a single purchase and literally everyone on the planet could in theory have the book so that embargo isn’t going to do anything to curb piracy. And I think that at least internally the publishers are aware that piracy is probably not the largest factor in the losses.

I’m also still solidly in the embargo camp for other reasons

[pwalker8]

Originally Posted by MGlitch

I think the point is that the DRM libraries use is so easily stripped and they’re free to get. So pirates are getting something for nothing.


I don’t really agree with this since it only takes a single purchase and literally everyone on the planet could in theory have the book so that embargo isn’t going to do anything to curb piracy. And I think that at least internally the publishers are aware that piracy is probably not the largest factor in the losses.

I’m also still solidly in the embargo camp for other reasons

People who want to pirate are going to pirate. They can always scan the book in if it comes down to that. The point of DRM is to prevent casual sharing among every day users.

The point of the embargo is to get people to buy the book rather than just get it at the library. It's not aimed at the dedicated library patron who proudly rarely buys books. That's just a small percentage of the reading population and they were never customers of publishers anyway. It's aimed at those who are willing to buy books and want the book when it comes out, not several months later after all their friends have already bought the book and had their discussions about it.

[DNSB]

Originally Posted by MGlitch

I think the point is that the DRM libraries use is so easily stripped and they’re free to get. So pirates are getting something for nothing.

@Sarmat89's statement was: "Libraries have crappy DRM, so the people borrowing the recent bestseller are more than likely to leak it to pirates."

Emphasis mine.

Can you point me in the direction of a library which uses a DRM system which is not as hard as that used by ebook retailers? If not, your statement that "the DRM libraries use is so easily stripped" which seems to suggest that retailers use DRM which is harder to strip is nonsensical. I've seen quite a few books posted to pirate sites as soon as they were released before the local library had their copies available for lending. A quick look at the formats available suggests that Amazon purchases are the major source of pirated ebooks.

[leebase]

Well....at least you have to buy a copy of a commercial book before stripping it.

[MGlitch]

Originally Posted by DNSB

@Sarmat89's statement was: "Libraries have crappy DRM, so the people borrowing the recent bestseller are more than likely to leak it to pirates."

Emphasis mine.

Can you point me in the direction of a library which uses a DRM system which is not as hard as that used by ebook retailers? If not, your statement that "the DRM libraries use is so easily stripped" which seems to suggest that retailers use DRM which is harder to strip is nonsensical. I've seen quite a few books posted to pirate sites as soon as they were released before the local library had their copies available for lending. A quick look at the formats available suggests that Amazon purchases are the major source of pirated ebooks.

First it's not my statement, I merely am pointing out what I think Sarmat89 meant by it.

Second I explained that they might use the same DRM, but with the library you're getting the book for free* vs paying for it from various stores. The difficulty in removing DRM from library books need not be harder than removing it from purchased books because the bar for getting them is somewhat lower.

Third I also pointed out I didn't agree with the view because again a single purchase is all it takes for everyone in the world to have a copy. Also I'm sure piracy amounts to fairly little of publishers losses on ebooks.

*Yes yes we pay taxes for libraries, but until someone is able to get a detailed breakdown of the amount of our taxes which goes to ebook licenses the amount is essentially zero given all the other expenses of a library.

[4691mls]

Given how long the waiting lists are for popular books, even if libraries are allowed to keep acquiring brand new books how many people are actually getting to read the book within the first 90 days anyway?

If each person has a 21 day maximum checkout and keeps the book the whole time that's only about 4 people per copy. (sure, a few people might return it sooner).

Anyone who really wants to read the book RIGHT NOW is probably going to buy it even if the library acquires it hot off the press. And anyone who is willing to wait on a long hold list will probably also be willing to wait an extra 90 days for the initial library acquisition.

[MGlitch]

Originally Posted by 4691mls

Given how long the waiting lists are for popular books, even if libraries are allowed to keep acquiring brand new books how many people are actually getting to read the book within the first 90 days anyway?

If each person has a 21 day maximum checkout and keeps the book the whole time that's only about 4 people per copy. (sure, a few people might return it sooner).

Anyone who really wants to read the book RIGHT NOW is probably going to buy it even if the library acquires it hot off the press. And anyone who is willing to wait on a long hold list will probably also be willing to wait an extra 90 days for the initial library acquisition.

Except the embargo is for multiple licenses. I’m not going to use crazy numbers but let’s say a library gets 5 for a hot new book. Let’s also say that these are likely voracious readers so 2-3 of each set will always finish in under two weeks (which is the base borrow time from what I’ve seen) and 2-3 will need to extend their hold.

That starts eating away at potential sales pretty quick especially when you multiply it out across all the libraries that get the book. It’d be hard to get an exact figure since we’d be dealing with library systems rather than individual libraries within those systems. But let’s say a single library produces 25 people in those 90 days and there are 200 library systems (I suspect there are way more this is giving each US state a grand total of four which is pretty laughable for numerous states) that’s 5,000 sales. So not a huge number but again I’m estimating way low on the library systems. Now multiply that by the number of new books each week for a major publisher like Macmillan with multiple imprints in their system this isn’t going to be an insignificant number either. But I’ll put it at 25 to account for slow times of the year, I can reasonably reassure you that this is still lowballing it. This now jumps the lost sales to 125,000. And now there are 52 weeks in a year which balloons the figure to 6,500,000 lost sales. Finally let’s assume each ebook was selling for 2.99 since most people on this forum seem to insist on the traditional pricing of books being absolutely ludicrous for ebooks. That’s 19,435,000 in lost revenue.

Hardly a small figure now, even if you want to cut off 1/4 of it and attribute those borrows which lead to sales from word of mouth which wouldn’t have happened otherwise and library borrowers who were never going to buy the book in the first place.

Yes I assume that for each book that comes out there’s going to be that many people waiting to borrow it. But the number of readers is always going to be more than the number of producers. So I think it’s a fair assumption.

[JSWolf]

They won't lose a sale from me for the more expensive eBooks. I have a number of different libraries I can have a look for the book and see which ones have a lower waiting time. Some can 6 months and others may say 2 weeks. It varies.

Heck, I put a hold on an eBook yesterday and I got it today when other libraries have a longer wait list.

[MGlitch]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

They won't lose a sale from me for the more expensive eBooks. I have a number of different libraries I can have a look for the book and see which ones have a lower waiting time. Some can 6 months and others may say 2 weeks. It varies.

Heck, I put a hold on an eBook yesterday and I got it today when other libraries have a longer wait list.

Jon, that's literally them losing a sale.

[Skydog]

Originally Posted by MGlitch

Jon, that's literally them losing a sale.

Not if there was no intention of purchasing it in the first place.

[issybird]

Originally Posted by Skydog

Not if there was no intention of purchasing it in the first place.

And reading something else in the meantime while waiting on a hold, no matter how long.

As has been said, the embargo is mostly going to affect those who want to read the book now, so they can partake in the chatter. Only so many of them were going to be at or near the front of the waitlist anyway. Essentially I don't see this resulting in a lot of additional sales, but I have no objection to publishers trying it as a tactic.

[MGlitch]

Originally Posted by Skydog

Not if there was no intention of purchasing it in the first place.

In this case Jon has given price as the consideration meaning he was interested but the cost was too high. Thus he turned to the library and obtained the book. And thus the publisher did not get his sale.

People who only borrow from the library regardless are also still lost sales they are just lost sales that there’s nothing to be done about because they’d never pay to consume the goods.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by MGlitch

Jon, that's literally them losing a sale.

Nope. If I don't get the eBook form the library, I won't be buying it.