Page Numbers, Percentage, or nothing at all

[rcentros]

Originally Posted by MGlitch

Yes when books were printed. I don’t know about you but I don’t print my ebooks.

As I mentioned in my post, I want my eBooks to correlate (relatively) to my printed books. Never any mention of my printing any of my eBooks.

Originally Posted by MGlitch

It’s not the same media. You wanting it to be the same doesn’t change that. It’s like insisting we use page counts for audiobooks. It makes no sense and it never will.

It doesn't matter if they're same media or not — up until this "page" per screen firmware change (which happened less than a month ago) eBook page numbers correlated (roughly) to printed book page numbers. It's not a revolutionary idea to want that standard to continue.

Originally Posted by MGlitch

While I don’t think it’s perfect going off one screen to ‘page’ tells you exactly how many taps it’s going to take for you to get to the end. And sure that it’s adjusted based on font size, screen size, etc makes referencing it harder for academic usage it’s not like physical books are immune to the same issue with different formats.

And again you know exactly how many taps it’s going to take to get you to the end of a kepub. With ADE and the old kepub system you didn’t because a ‘page’ could end three lines into a new screen.

I don't care how many screen taps it takes to get to the end of the book. I'm not a computer, I'm a human being. I want a system that correlates to a common standard. Consistent page numbering (even in eBooks) was a standard until less than a month ago — it still is everywhere but in Kobo Land.

Originally Posted by MGlitch

You’re neglecting to mention that in the current system in an x of y pages of you adjust settings while y goes up so to does x. It’s not like new pages are generated at the end of the book. So you still have the same relative position.

Yep, but I don't still have the same relative page count, which is I want.

[rcentros]

Originally Posted by MGlitch

They were only applied to ebooks because people were used to them from the physical limitations of physical books.

But I still read printed books, so I want relative consistency between the two mediums. I can get it with ePubs from everywhere else but Kobo, so the solution to this problem is glaring (unless Kobo decides an option to use the "old" standard (way back three weeks ago) might not be a bad decision).

[rcentros]

Originally Posted by ZodWallop

You don't have to use it either. Just use ePubs. This entire thread seems to pretend that that is not an option, when of course it is.

Since ePubs are available, why does it matter what kepub does?

If I could specify ePub when downloading books to my Kobos, this would be a good solution.

What it comes down is I'll probably just buy even more of my books from Amazon — since De-DRMing Nook books seems to be nearly impossible in Linux and the Obok plugin doesn't seem to be consistently supported for Linux at this time (I have to use an old version and it's getting "iffy" with Kobo books).

[MGlitch]

Originally Posted by rcentros

As I mentioned in my post, I want my eBooks to correlate (relatively) to my printed books. Never any mention of my printing any of my eBooks.

It doesn't matter if they're same media or not — up until this "page" per screen firmware change (which happened less than a month ago) eBook page numbers correlated (roughly) to printed book page numbers. It's not a revolutionary idea to want that standard to continue.

I don't care how many screen taps it takes to get to the end of the book. I'm not a computer, I'm a human being. I want a system that correlates to a common standard. Consistent page numbering (even in eBooks) was a standard until less than a month ago — it still is everywhere but in Kobo Land.

It’s nice that you want this but again ebooks are different media, and sorry but it does matter. There hasn’t been a common standard. Kindle did it one way, Nook did it another way, Kobo another, ADE yet another and I’m sure the list goes on. Literally none of them were the same. As to your correlates between ebooks and physical books again they are different media just because you wish it wasn’t so doesn’t change the fact that they are and that it has ramifications which do matter. A page has never and likely will never exist in an ebook. Just as a page doesn’t exist in an audiobook.

But ok let’s examine just how much adjusting the font size actually affects it. Knocking the font size down in a kepub by four notches which was a not insignificant change in the displayed size resulted in the “loss” of 80 “pages” which is flat out laughable when compared to the difference between a hardcover and mass market. Are you incapable of making that kind of adjustment for getting a sense of how long an ebook is vs a physical? And if so how do you manage to live with hardcover, trade paperback, extended mass market, mass market, and the various odd size books all of which also can use different fonts, line spacing, margins etc from one another which would affect how much content is actually there.

You cling to a “standard” which even in a static media has rather drastic variation. And you want to impose this “standard” on a different media which doesn’t adhere to any of the core requirements of the connections between the other media and this “standard”.

Yep, but I don't still have the same relative page count, which is I want.

Then use ePub and turn on ADE. Your Kobo still reads them and the ADE page number still exists. Though even Adobe doesn’t seem to like it.

[MGlitch]

Originally Posted by rcentros

If I could specify ePub when downloading books to my Kobos, this would be a good solution.

What it comes down is I'll probably just buy even more of my books from Amazon — since De-DRMing Nook books seems to be nearly impossible in Linux and the Obok plugin doesn't seem to be consistently supported for Linux at this time (I have to use an old version and it's getting "iffy" with Kobo books).

Can’t Calibre run in Wine? That should give you the benefit of the Windows developed app.

[DNSB]

Originally Posted by rcentros

But I still read printed books, so I want relative consistency between the two mediums. I can get it with ePubs from everywhere else but Kobo, so the solution to this problem is glaring (unless Kobo decides an option to use the "old" standard (way back three weeks ago) might not be a bad decision).

Interesting. I've never found much of close correlation between the page numbers in a pbook and ebook edition of the same book unless the creator has deliberately added the information and you happen to have the edition of the pbook those numbers came from. This applies to Kindle, Nook, Kobo, Tolino and Pocketbook ereaders that I've played with. The best I've found is using % so 10% into the ebook is around 73 pages into a 732 page pbook.

Heck, even a pbook will change the page numbering between the various formats (hardcover, trade paperback, paperback). I also have one textbook where the reprint of the 4 edition was re-typeset and ended up 10 pages shorter that the original 4th edition.

[rcentros]

Originally Posted by DNSB

Interesting. I've never found much of close correlation between the page numbers in a pbook and ebook edition of the same book unless the creator has deliberately added the information and you happen to have the edition of the pbook those numbers came from...

I've found pretty close correlation on many books... and I don't have to own the printed books to look up how many pages they have in paperback and hardback versions. That's usually provided in the advertising blurb.

For example, I just downloaded a Kindle First book that I may or may not read called The Last Dance. The Kindle version is 456 pages, the hardback book is 463 pages and the paperback book is 464 pages. I'm guessing in the new Kobo scheme this book could be anywhere between 200 pages to 60,000 pages. Which, of course, means nothing. By "relative correlation" I (of course) don't mean exact correlation, but I do expect something in the same ballpark.

I realize this is not important to some folks, but it is important to me. But I'm repeating myself now, so I'll try to butt out from this thread.

[rcentros]

Originally Posted by MGlitch

You cling to a “standard” which even in a static media has rather drastic variation. And you want to impose this “standard” on a different media which doesn’t adhere to any of the core requirements of the connections between the other media and this “standard”.

Yeah, the old standard has "drastic variations," but the new standard (where I illustrated that my 2744 page book could be go all the way from about 1,500 pages to 82,000 (and some) pages) is a new "uniform" standard. Uh, huh.

I'm sorry, but this is getting too silly to take seriously.

[rcentros]

Originally Posted by MGlitch

Then use ePub and turn on ADE. Your Kobo still reads them and the ADE page number still exists. Though even Adobe doesn’t seem to like it.

Or I can opt to quit using my Kobos, and instead use my Tolinos, Sonys or Nooks (which I've pretty much done anyhow). I've got too many readers. I think I'll opt to keep a Kobo Mini (which uses the old firmware) and let the other Kobos go find new homes.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by ratinox

True. Physical books are counted in words. But then, so are electronic books. Word number 18,291 in a 50,000 word book is always the same word whether it's a pocket paperback, a hardcover, a large print, a plain text file, an HTML file, an ePub archive, a Kepub archive, a MOBI file, a LIT file, a KF8 archive, a PRC file, a... heck, a papyrus scroll, notches in clay tablets, even scratchings on a cave wall. Get the point yet?

So how do you go to word 18,291n the book? You cannot do so without counting. But you can go to page 35 easily. Let's say you have a book that has no chapters (Discworld books have no chapters). You have a hardcover and I have a mass market. So how do I tell you to go to page 35? M page 35 i not the same as your page 35. But if we are both reading the ePub version with ADE, I can tell you to go to page 35 and you'll go to the same page even if your device is 8" and mine is 6.8". So in this case, which page number system is working better? The ADE page number system is working better.

Show me a physical book that uses ADE faux pages and I'll reconsider the assertion.

pBooks use a page number system that's inconsistent between different physical versions. ADE uses a page number system that consistent between different devices/settings. ADE page number are not faux. You've got that 100% wrong.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by rcentros

Yeah, but we know the difference between a 500 page book (novel) and a 200 page book (romance, western, etc.). I've got a nine book series I bought from Kobo. The print length is 2,828 pages (when adding all nine books). The old way Kobo handled KePub page numbering resulted in 2,744 "pages." (So fairly close, not exact, correlation.) Now that same series (in my standard sized font, is 6,946 "pages" (screens)). But if I use the smallest font size it's 1,523 "pages" — the largest font-size produces a "page" count of 82,836. In other words, KePubs "page" count has become completely worthless.

You may be in favor of "divorcing" eBook page counts from paper book page counts, but I'm not. I still read both eBooks and printed books and I like consistency, or at least relative consistency. An arbitrary screen "page" count just isn't going to hack it for me. I'll go a different direction.

Stop reading KePub and read ePub. You'll get the page numbers you want. They won't change if you change the font and/or font size. ADE is consistent across different devices running RMSDK. pBooks are not consistent. In your example, one of those books could be a trade PB and the other a mass market PB. The page numbers don't match at all. Different physical size and the text size will be smaller in the mass market edition. Heck, you can have two different mass market books and the text can be of different sizes and thus, the page numbers are worthless when comparing.

But, if I take two completely different ePub and look at the page numbers in RMSDK, I have page numbers that are consistent and you can use them to compare the length of the book.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by rcentros

Consistency is even more important with an eBook because, with a printed book, you can see (even wiegh) the length of the book. (Mentioned in another post.) When "page" numbers become arbitrary on eReaders, depending on the size of the screen or font, they become meaningless.

A hardcover book with less pages then a mass market can be heavier. Yes, you can examine the pages and get a sense of which may be longer. But sometimes it's not that easy.

As for page numbers, use ePub with ADE and you'll get consistent page numbers that do what you want.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by MGlitch

Page numbers didn’t become arbitrary in ebooks they always were arbitrary.

Yes once you apply a system like ADE it’s going to have some level of consistency but the parameters for ADE are arbitrary they could have used anything as is evidenced by the different system kepub used.

They were only applied to ebooks because people were used to them from the physical limitations of physical books.

You want something consistent that gives you book length use word counts.

pBooks could have use a different system where one physical page (both sides) or how many page turns was counted as 1 page. So how are page numbers for pBooks any less arbitrary? Heck, some pBooks do not start with page 1 on the first page. Page 1 can start on the first page of chapter 1. That makes some pBooks less accurate.

Both pBook and ADE page numbers are based on a system. The thing is, because eBooks are in a different container, they need a different system. The system that works and was the first one created was ADE page numbers.

Do you have a better system for page numbers for an eBook?

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by rcentros

But I still read printed books, so I want relative consistency between the two mediums. I can get it with ePubs from everywhere else but Kobo, so the solution to this problem is glaring (unless Kobo decides an option to use the "old" standard (way back three weeks ago) might not be a bad decision).

That is incorrect. You can get ePub from Kobo. It just means you download the eBook and side load instead of syncing.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by rcentros

If I could specify ePub when downloading books to my Kobos, this would be a good solution.

What it comes down is I'll probably just buy even more of my books from Amazon — since De-DRMing Nook books seems to be nearly impossible in Linux and the Obok plugin doesn't seem to be consistently supported for Linux at this time (I have to use an old version and it's getting "iffy" with Kobo books).

Why are you making this much more difficult then it needs to be? Because you cannot sync ePub, you'll buy from Amazon where you have to either download using the Kindle program or download form Amazon and then have to convert to ePub when you could just download from Kobo and end up with an ePub that you do not have to convert. This makes little to no sense.