Do some publishers have any idea?

[meeera]

Originally Posted by Deskisamess

I disagree. The main thing, if I understand correctly, that makes an "Indie" an Indie, is that they do not use traditional print publishing by a big publishing house. There are indie authors who are great writers, there are indie authors who are terrible writers, and everything in between. The same can be said for waitstaff.

More apropos, there are indies making a full-time living out of indie publishing. If your waitperson is making a full-time living out of acting, they're obviously an actor.

[gweeks]

Originally Posted by leebase

Its also why the vast majority of Indie authors are “authors” the way your waitress is really an “actress”.

Almost no "authors" indie or traditionally published make a living as an author. Almost all of them have some other income that they live on. Spouse, other job or trust fund.

Greg

[issybird]

Originally Posted by rkomar

Have wages risen at the same overall rate as inflation? I would say not. I would say that people in general have less money for non-essentials (like books) than they did twenty years ago. If book prices have not tracked inflation, I would say that was because publishers know that sales would go down far more if the prices got much higher. I really don't see book prices not being higher as a sign that readers are lucky, rather it is a sign that they find it more difficult to pay the prices. If people are grumbling that books cost too much, it is within the context of dropping disposable incomes.

I don't know anything about increases in book prices relative to inflation, but it won't stop me from theorizing! I think one important factor in somewhat flat book prices, if such indeed be the case, is that books are more fungible than most unique items, to employ an apparent contradiction in terms. Even if you can't read the current best seller, there's something you can read for cheap if not free.

As for books being non-essentials, well, they're not food, clothing or shelter, but in the context where most seem willing and able to pay boatloads of bucks for cellphones, streaming media and so forth, they seem both quite the bargain and, I may add, one of my own personal necessities and that will never change. (I still have a dumbphone, btw, and don't stream media.)

[murraypaul]

Originally Posted by issybird

I don't know anything about increases in book prices relative to inflation, but it won't stop me from theorizing! I think one important factor in somewhat flat book prices, if such indeed be the case

I just grabbed a handful of paperbacks off a shelf to do a quick check. Now prices are RRP from Amazon UK. Should-be prices are from The Bank of England's inflation calendar to say what the original purchase price is worth in 2018 pounds.

C J Samson - Dissolution. £7.99 in 2003, £8.99 now. (Should be £12.43)
Michael Jecks - The Crediton Killings. £6.99 in 1998, £8.99 now. (Should be £12.10)
Paul Doherty - Murder Wears a Cowl. £4.99 in 1993, £6.99 now. (Should be £10.01)
Dorothy L Sayers - Unnatural Death. £2.95 in 1987, £9.99 now. (Should be £8.64)
Patricia Wentworth - Pilgrim's Rest. £1.10 in 1980, £9.99 now. (Should be £4.63)
Anne McCaffrey - Dragonquest. 40p in 1974, £8.99 now. (Should be £4.09)
Ngaio Marsh - Died in the Wool. 3 and 6 in 1963, £9.99 now.

On that very small sample size, book prices now are more expensive than they were in the eighties and earlier, but cheaper now than since then.

In reality the difference is greater, because in the nineties and earlier the RRP was what you paid under the Net Book Agreement, the price was just the price.
Now there is a reasonable chance of paying noticeably less.
Interesting that on my unscientific sample, the end of the NBA also coincides with RRPs dropping.

[Rearranged the inflation-adjusted figures to hopefully make them more understandable.]

[leebase]

Originally Posted by Deskisamess

Not reading any Indie authors because some are bad writers would be like never going to a restaurant again because some waitstaff are bad at their jobs.

I think you missed my point. If you like books, and wish there to be more of the type and quality you like....pay for it.

A very few authors are going to pay the rent selling books for $.99, let alone the mortgage.

My words were not aimed at those who can't afford books, but at the notion that folks paying the freight...the "best fans" who are "being ripped off"....are really the fans that are supporting the art. They aren't getting ripped off. They are paying for what they like and doing so in a way that will support the FUTURE creation of art they like.

And if you are one of the "ride alongs" (people who read for free or pay the cheapest prices)....at least show some respect and gratitude for those who's buying habits are paying for the art you enjoy to exist.

[Fbone]

Originally Posted by Deskisamess

Not reading any Indie authors because some are bad writers would be like never going to a restaurant again because some waitstaff are bad at their jobs.

Since my reading time is limited, I have to play the odds. There is a much greater chance of me finishing and enjoying a Big 5-ish published author than an "indie".

[DuckieTigger]

Originally Posted by Fbone

Since my reading time is limited, I have to play the odds. There is a much greater chance of me finishing and enjoying a Big 5-ish published author than an "indie".

Is this out of experience or gut feeling? Or put in different words: would you refuse to give an Indie a try if someone gave you a recommendation for a specific book or author? And not just any someone, but one you know who gave you recommendations before.

Just curious. If you heard horror stories, and those put you off even giving it a try, then that alone would be a reasonable explanation. It is very possible that some of the "bad PR against Indies" might just be part of some conspiracy theory or propaganda. Or, more likely, the process of finding a book to enjoy is vastly different for Big5 vs Indie. And yes, it is different for sure. Going to a B&M store and browsing the shelves, for one, is out for Indies.

[Sirtel]

Originally Posted by DuckieTigger

Or, more likely, the process of finding a book to enjoy is vastly different for Big5 vs Indie.

For me personally it's exactly the same. I read almost nothing on the basis of recommendations. People's tastes vary too much for that. (The one exception being when most of the readers say the book is really badly written). I just browse newer books on Amazon every few months or so and decide for myself which of them I'm willing to give a try.

[Fbone]

Originally Posted by DuckieTigger

Is this out of experience or gut feeling? Or put in different words: would you refuse to give an Indie a try if someone gave you a recommendation for a specific book or author? And not just any someone, but one you know who gave you recommendations before.

Just curious. If you heard horror stories, and those put you off even giving it a try, then that alone would be a reasonable explanation. It is very possible that some of the "bad PR against Indies" might just be part of some conspiracy theory or propaganda. Or, more likely, the process of finding a book to enjoy is vastly different for Big5 vs Indie. And yes, it is different for sure. Going to a B&M store and browsing the shelves, for one, is out for Indies.

Initially, it was through experience. When I first joined MR, I would search for the free titles, read a sample and post some of them here in the Deals thread. I did this daily until the I got tired of it and eventually the forum policy changed. I sampled hundreds (possibly thousands) of "indie" titles during this time and only fully read a handful enjoying even fewer.

Currently, I have a backlog of books by authors/series that I most likely will enjoy. For me to read an "indie" it would have to be very highly recommended, interesting and free.

Also, I am a bit of a reading snob. All books are judged equally regardless of whether published by Big 5+ or "indie". I expect the same high all-around quality.

[DiapDealer]

Can I ask why you quote the word indie every single time?

[pwalker8]

Originally Posted by leebase

I think you missed my point. If you like books, and wish there to be more of the type and quality you like....pay for it.

A very few authors are going to pay the rent selling books for $.99, let alone the mortgage.

My words were not aimed at those who can't afford books, but at the notion that folks paying the freight...the "best fans" who are "being ripped off"....are really the fans that are supporting the art. They aren't getting ripped off. They are paying for what they like and doing so in a way that will support the FUTURE creation of art they like.

And if you are one of the "ride alongs" (people who read for free or pay the cheapest prices)....at least show some respect and gratitude for those who's buying habits are paying for the art you enjoy to exist.

I mostly agree with that. The only thing that I would disagree with is the tone of the "ride alongs" part.

[leebase]

Originally Posted by pwalker8

I mostly agree with that. The only thing that I would disagree with is the tone of the "ride alongs" part.

No apologies there. It’s the same for people who go to church, have means to give, but don’t or give very little. Such people are just riding along on services that wouldn’t exist if everyone acted like they do.

[DuckieTigger]

Originally Posted by Fbone

Initially, it was through experience. When I first joined MR, I would search for the free titles, read a sample and post some of them here in the Deals thread. I did this daily until the I got tired of it and eventually the forum policy changed. I sampled hundreds (possibly thousands) of "indie" titles during this time and only fully read a handful enjoying even fewer.

Currently, I have a backlog of books by authors/series that I most likely will enjoy. For me to read an "indie" it would have to be very highly recommended, interesting and free.

Also, I am a bit of a reading snob. All books are judged equally regardless of whether published by Big 5+ or "indie". I expect the same high all-around quality.

Thanks. Looking through the best free books, in my opinion, is not going to be the best way to find a good book. Perhaps you were hoping to find the start of a series for free, kind of a bigger sample than a sample? They are no good, and I avoid those like the pest. From the ones I seen it is usually a short novella with no real ending. Similar I avoid all series that have the first book in KU and rest need to be purchased. Why waste my time with a bait to make me purchase the rest, it is not any different to me than first book permafree.

If you are only willing to pay nothing for Indies, you are severely limiting your selection. I also believe there to be a lot more bad books in the free category.

[DuckieTigger]

Originally Posted by leebase

No apologies there. It’s the same for people who go to church, have means to give, but don’t or give very little. Such people are just riding along on services that wouldn’t exist if everyone acted like they do.

That is utterly nonsense. If you believe church services to be collection efforts, then you believe wrong. Church is not a pay to win game.

ETA (more on topic): Those that wait for sale prices or price drops on books are also supporting the art(ist). Some books don't really take off until the MM paperback comes out. Just not enough to rely on the HC buyers.

[pdurrant]

Ahem. A reminder to everyone to keep religious discussions in the P&R forum. Thanks.