Oh the irony...

[pwalker8]

Originally Posted by Hitch

Nope. My attitude is, for self-pubs, that they can damn well start out peddling their wares at a bargain price. ...
Hitch

I'll let Leebase speak for himself. When I say support the author, I tend to mean that if you have an author you like, go ahead and buy the books so he or she will have the money to keep writing. I've had way too many authors that I really liked give up writing because they could make a living at it.

I certainly agree that when an author is first trying to build an audience, it behoves that author to put out the books cheap. I'll buy a book for a buck on a whim if it looks mildly interesting. It really has to catch my attention before I'll pop $15+ on an author I've never read before, or it has to have the recommendation of someone that I trust. That is what the free first book in a series thing is all about.

[DuckieTigger]

Originally Posted by pwalker8

Or it could simply mean they actually know what the word Generally means and aren't interested in playing internet word games.

It is a rare occasion, but this time I have to completely agree with you. Generally our opinions, thoughts and views do not align well. Some do.

[Pajamaman]

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

I find that nearly every claim that something is definitively immoral usually serves to shine a bright light on the likelihood that there is no such thing as "definitively immoral."

I'm not saying there's no such thing as immorality. I'm only saying that it's a moving target that can't (by it's very nature) be objectively pointed at as such by everyone, everywhere, at any time.

In a thread that discussed racist attitudes in history, you argued that racism in all times, regardless of the social mores of the time, was always immoral. Despite everyone else arguing that one must take the historical and social context into account, you refused to budge. For you, it was always immoral. So, uh...kinda surprised to hear this from you.

[DiapDealer]

Originally Posted by Pajamaman

In a thread that discussed racist attitudes in history, you argued that racism in all times, regardless of the social mores of the time, was always immoral. Despite everyone else arguing that one must take the historical and social context into account, you refused to budge. For you, it was always immoral. So, uh...kinda surprised to hear this from you.

Why surprised? It's not inconsistent at all. For me, racism is/was always immoral: regardless of the time period; regardless of the social context. As per that conversation you're referring to, it's clear that not everyone feels the same about it (even though it is my opinion they are dead wrong). But isn't that the very essence of what I just said (that you quoted)?? It was, in fact, that exact past conversation about racism/immorality (though I remember it being more specifically about slavery being immoral) that I had in mind when I posted it.

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by pwalker8

I'll let Leebase speak for himself. When I say support the author, I tend to mean that if you have an author you like, go ahead and buy the books so he or she will have the money to keep writing. I've had way too many authors that I really liked give up writing because they could make a living at it.

Which I, and most of us here, do. We pay for the books. My argument was simply that asking me to pay, say, $9.99 for a new author's book, when it hasn't been vetted or comes flying at me over the transom, effectively (KDP) is not going to fly. Look at The Martian--basically free, for his first however-many-thousands of fans, on his blog. You cannot judge the quality of the effort by the sales price, today. That idea has been completely stamped out for the brand-new writer by the democratization of publishing, effectively. For those that have pubbed a few books, it's more appropos.

I certainly agree that when an author is first trying to build an audience, it behoves that author to put out the books cheap. I'll buy a book for a buck on a whim if it looks mildly interesting. It really has to catch my attention before I'll pop $15+ on an author I've never read before, or it has to have the recommendation of someone that I trust. That is what the free first book in a series thing is all about.

Sure, this. I mean, when I started out making ebooks, I certainly wasn't charging what "experts" (whatever THAT was back then, ha!) were. I started out at a "learning" rate and worked my way up.

We should view self-publishing as what it is--an old way of training/learning. It's an apprenticeship to journeyman to master process. The difference now is instead of those folks being witnessed behind writing group doors and critique group doors and all those other doors, we're seeing it up close and personal. Many will never--never--get out of the apprenticeship stage, but that's what it's for. Culling. And their pay is commensurate with where they are on that ladder.

Hitch

[pwalker8]

Originally Posted by Hitch

Which I, and most of us here, do. We pay for the books. My argument was simply that asking me to pay, say, $9.99 for a new author's book, when it hasn't been vetted or comes flying at me over the transom, effectively (KDP) is not going to fly. Look at The Martian--basically free, for his first however-many-thousands of fans, on his blog. You cannot judge the quality of the effort by the sales price, today. That idea has been completely stamped out for the brand-new writer by the democratization of publishing, effectively. For those that have pubbed a few books, it's more appropos.



Sure, this. I mean, when I started out making ebooks, I certainly wasn't charging what "experts" (whatever THAT was back then, ha!) were. I started out at a "learning" rate and worked my way up.

We should view self-publishing as what it is--an old way of training/learning. It's an apprenticeship to journeyman to master process. The difference now is instead of those folks being witnessed behind writing group doors and critique group doors and all those other doors, we're seeing it up close and personal. Many will never--never--get out of the apprenticeship stage, but that's what it's for. Culling. And their pay is commensurate with where they are on that ladder.

Hitch

I don't disagree with you too much . I was just saying that your interpretation of the meaning of the phrase "support the authors" is somewhat different that what I mean when I say it.

I will say that there are certainly some here who apparently don't feel any particular obligation or desire to pay more than the "new indie author trying to build an audience" rate, even if most authors are unable to make a living at that price.

[murraypaul]

Originally Posted by pwalker8

I will say that there are certainly some here who apparently don't feel any particular obligation or desire to pay more than the "new indie author trying to build an audience" rate, even if most authors are unable to make a living at that price.

I have a price I'm willing to pay for eBooks. It varies somewhat based on the book/genre/author.
If I book I'm interested in is on sale at my price, I'll buy it, if it isn't, I won't.
I feel no obligation to pay more than I think something is worth for any consumer item, books are no different.
I'm not patronising the arts, I'm buying a product.

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by pwalker8

I don't disagree with you too much . I was just saying that your interpretation of the meaning of the phrase "support the authors" is somewhat different that what I mean when I say it.

I will say that there are certainly some here who apparently don't feel any particular obligation or desire to pay more than the "new indie author trying to build an audience" rate, even if most authors are unable to make a living at that price.

Okay, so, let me ask you this:

My business competes pretty head-on with all the comparable firms (so to speak) in India. My rates are suppressed, due to that; John Doe author can go to India and get someone to make his book that is paid $0.99/hour.

Now...in my humble opinion, our work is superior--but much of that is not visible to the buyer. Most authors couldn't care less if every word in an ePUB is surrounded by a span, or made using Calibre instead of hand-coded, etc.

Should authors pay me more? If they genuinely cannot see the difference, between the end product, because it's in the code, should they pay me more--out of what sense of what, exactly? Because in this country, I can't make a living, charging what the Indians charge, $0.99/hour for bookmaking?

Why should they pay me more? What, should I call myself an "artist" so as to warrant more money? They need to keep their costs down, just like a greengrocer, because they are then selling that product. Lower costs=more profit for them, right?

Perhaps I've misunderstood what you've said, but you seem to be saying that if John Doe author can't earn his daily bread as a writer, we should "pay more" so that he can. I say to you that either John needs to up his game, or like most (for all time, not just recently) John needs to keep his damn day job so that he can feed himself and his family. If he can't, then he's obviously not meant to be a full-time author.

How is this different than what we tell people generally? We tell kids, "go to college, get a good education so that you can get a good job, have a family, buy a house, etc." yes? We do that because some gigs pay more than others. We do that because greater education, generally, yields more dough. Them's the breaks.

Why is this different for writers, if that's what you're saying? They start out, they make X if they're fortunate and they work hard and their work is worth reading. They persist, write more (move up the ladder), they grow a fan base, they sell more through WOM, and raising their prices. For writers, generally, that added experience = greater education. So...they move up the "writer's ladder" and earn more. If they're good enough, they make a living at it and can quit their day job.

This is no different than many occupations. Authors, actors, singers--certainly, anything in the "arts" or "creative" arenas. It's the same in any business--the guy who starts on the factory floor won't be guaranteed that someday, he'll sit in the corner office. He has to work at it to do that. The woman in the pink ghetto, the secretarial pool--she has to work at it to move out of that and into the executive offices. Not everybody gets to the top of their chosen profession, whether it's glorified, like acting, singing, writing, or mundane, like being the CEO of a garbage-collection business. The few make it to the top, more don't. There's an entire middle group of writers, that used to be called "midlisters" that make some, but not quite enough money, to quit their day jobs. They've been around forever, and they are now in even greater numbers, the KDP Journeymen, right?

Or have I completely misunderstood your meaning, which is routine in the world of (ha!) written forum posts? If I have, my sincerest apologies for rambling on so...

Hitch

[DNSB]

Originally Posted by Hitch

Look at The Martian--basically free, for his first however-many-thousands of fans, on his blog. You cannot judge the quality of the effort by the sales price, today. That idea has been completely stamped out for the brand-new writer by the democratization of publishing, effectively. For those that have pubbed a few books, it's more appropos.

Basically free? When I picked it up, it was free. One of the few freebies that I was impressed enough by to put the author on my watch list.

Originally Posted by Hitch

Sure, this. I mean, when I started out making ebooks, I certainly wasn't charging what "experts" (whatever THAT was back then, ha!) were. I started out at a "learning" rate and worked my way up.

I've never gotten to the "expert" rate but then, for me, it's a sideline which has the advantage I can say no much easier than if I was depending on that income to pay the grocery bill. You want your INDD epub3 fixed layout ebook with embedded audio & video to upload to Amazon and look the same?

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by DNSB

Basically free? When I picked it up, it was free. One of the few freebies that I was impressed enough by to put the author on my watch list.

I meant, when he was first writing it, putting excerpts and chapters on his blog, getting reads and feedback from his readers, etc. ;-) Wonderful book, emphasizing actual brains over brawn for a change.

I've never gotten to the "expert" rate but then, for me, it's a sideline which has the advantage I can say no much easier than if I was depending on that income to pay the grocery bill. You want your INDD epub3 fixed layout ebook with embedded audio & video to upload to Amazon and look the same?

Indeedy. And "expert" seems to be sadly fungible, in terms of eBooks, covers, etc., these days, lemme say! I'm pretty sure you're as expert as the best of us.

Hitch

[pwalker8]

Originally Posted by Hitch

Okay, so, let me ask you this:

My business competes pretty head-on with all the comparable firms (so to speak) in India. My rates are suppressed, due to that; John Doe author can go to India and get someone to make his book that is paid $0.99/hour.

Now...in my humble opinion, our work is superior--but much of that is not visible to the buyer. Most authors couldn't care less if every word in an ePUB is surrounded by a span, or made using Calibre instead of hand-coded, etc.

Should authors pay me more? If they genuinely cannot see the difference, between the end product, because it's in the code, should they pay me more--out of what sense of what, exactly? Because in this country, I can't make a living, charging what the Indians charge, $0.99/hour for bookmaking?

Why should they pay me more? What, should I call myself an "artist" so as to warrant more money? They need to keep their costs down, just like a greengrocer, because they are then selling that product. Lower costs=more profit for them, right?

Perhaps I've misunderstood what you've said, but you seem to be saying that if John Doe author can't earn his daily bread as a writer, we should "pay more" so that he can. I say to you that either John needs to up his game, or like most (for all time, not just recently) John needs to keep his damn day job so that he can feed himself and his family. If he can't, then he's obviously not meant to be a full-time author.

How is this different than what we tell people generally? We tell kids, "go to college, get a good education so that you can get a good job, have a family, buy a house, etc." yes? We do that because some gigs pay more than others. We do that because greater education, generally, yields more dough. Them's the breaks.

Why is this different for writers, if that's what you're saying? They start out, they make X if they're fortunate and they work hard and their work is worth reading. They persist, write more (move up the ladder), they grow a fan base, they sell more through WOM, and raising their prices. For writers, generally, that added experience = greater education. So...they move up the "writer's ladder" and earn more. If they're good enough, they make a living at it and can quit their day job.

This is no different than many occupations. Authors, actors, singers--certainly, anything in the "arts" or "creative" arenas. It's the same in any business--the guy who starts on the factory floor won't be guaranteed that someday, he'll sit in the corner office. He has to work at it to do that. The woman in the pink ghetto, the secretarial pool--she has to work at it to move out of that and into the executive offices. Not everybody gets to the top of their chosen profession, whether it's glorified, like acting, singing, writing, or mundane, like being the CEO of a garbage-collection business. The few make it to the top, more don't. There's an entire middle group of writers, that used to be called "midlisters" that make some, but not quite enough money, to quit their day jobs. They've been around forever, and they are now in even greater numbers, the KDP Journeymen, right?

Or have I completely misunderstood your meaning, which is routine in the world of (ha!) written forum posts? If I have, my sincerest apologies for rambling on so...

Hitch

Yea, you are pretty much misunderstanding my meaning.

Ok, let's take Larry Correa as an example. Larry Correa started as an indie and was picked up by Baen. He likes to dabble in specific genres and publish those books via the indie/micro publisher route.

His first book, Monster Hunters International, is free. The rest seem to settle somewhere between $5 and $10.

I happen to like Larry Correa and think he's a very good author, so if I want more of his books, it behooves me to buy them at the market rates, rather than hold out waiting to get the books on special or get them at the library. If I don't buy his books at the market rates, then I have only myself to blame if he can't make a living at it and goes back to accounting and I have to find something else to read. From that stand point, I tend to buy the albums of my favorite musicians in iTunes rather than just listen to them for $10 a month via Apple Music for the same reason. It's pure selfishness on my part.

There is another indie author who I think is ok, but his books tend to run together and he has a real tendency to string out the story too much trying to milk it for all he can. Like a lot of mid list type authors, the first couple of books in a series can be interesting, but it quickly meanders into uninteresting fairly quickly. I'll buy one of his books if I find it interesting, but feel no particular obligation to keep my eye out for his books. If he can't make a living at it, then well sorry but he isn't good enough in my opinion for me to want to support.

As far as your business goes, I think that quality matters. Some people just care about cost. I don't understand that mindset, but that's how they think. You can never win getting into a race to the bottom with someone who thinks that $10 a day is a good wage. I sympathize with you on that. If I were an author, I would want the best I could afford, because as an author, you usually only get one shot to impress any potential readers.

As far as other businesses go, well I keep clicking on the donate button when I download Calibre even after all these years. No idea how much I've actually given to Govid, but I really like his product and I know that part of the reason Calibre is still being updated after all these years is that enough people click on the donate button.

[binaryhermit]

More from Good(sic)EReader https://goodereader.com/blog/e-book-...e-rise-in-2019

[binaryhermit]

And it's not entirely like these stats are actually realistic
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=84M55-TL5go

EDIT: I'll admit to pirating stuff in my younger, dumber days, and I regret doing so, but a lot of it I wouldn't have purchased anyway, so calling one pirated copy one lost sale is not true. I suspect they do that because they want to push the narrative that they're getting killed by piracy because they feel that makes it easier for them to get certain changes they feel would be beneficial pushed through.

[leebase]

Originally Posted by binaryhermit

And it's not entirely like these stats are actually realistic
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=84M55-TL5go

EDIT: I'll admit to pirating stuff in my younger, dumber days, and I regret doing so, but a lot of it I wouldn't have purchased anyway, so calling one pirated copy one lost sale is not true. I suspect they do that because they want to push the narrative that they're getting killed by piracy because they feel that makes it easier for them to get certain changes they feel would be beneficial pushed through.

I think that Neil will find out that, as ebooks become the most desired format, people won’t buy his books after having pirated them. It was the same thing with the Baen Free Library. Plenty of testimonials that people would buy a book after having read it for free.

It’s not that there isn’t some amount of truth that piracy (and libraries) act as advertising. And clearly there isn’t a one to one “a pirated book equals a lost sale”. There is truth to both.

But take a look at the history of Napster. When pirating becomes so easy, and the pirated product indistinguishable from the commercial...profits of an entire industry can plummet.

[binaryhermit]

Then spotify and similar services had just about everything and were easier than piracy...

A guy can dream?