Dual Mobi. How Compatible?

[Little.Egret]

Originally Posted by Hitch

AND

can't be used by millions of older devices. That's why the dual mobi exists--so that the older content can be used by it. The Kindle, K2, DXes (of which there are a huge, huge number), the KK, the original K3, and I think that's all of them, not counting variants that came and went for the first 5 or so years.


Hitch

In fact the Kindle Keyboard aka KK aka K3 can handle KF8 fine. It was the last or next to last firmware update and let the user see "Publisher Font"

If any geek reading this can point to where on this site I could have looked this up they would be doing a useful deed.

As to Smashwords, I last left it when you got the choice of uploading a Word for running through their 'Meatgrinder' or additionally your own ePub, The Mobi etc downloads if sold were always Smashwords conversion

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by Little.Egret

In fact the Kindle Keyboard aka KK aka K3 can handle KF8 fine. It was the last or next to last firmware update and let the user see "Publisher Font"

If any geek reading this can point to where on this site I could have looked this up they would be doing a useful deed.

As to Smashwords, I last left it when you got the choice of uploading a Word for running through their 'Meatgrinder' or additionally your own ePub, The Mobi etc downloads if sold were always Smashwords conversion

LE:

There were some KKs that did not read KF8. I don't claim to know all the ins and outs of why Amazon did what it did, but it was the later KKs that worked fine with KF8. The older (earlier) ones, that were "K3's" before being renamed KK, were not.

Hitch

[lumpynose]

Regarding page breaks, isn't it the case that with an epub you always get a page break at the beginning of a new html/xhtml/whatever file? And is that page break preserved when the epub is converted to a KF7, KF8, dual mobi, etc.?

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by lumpynose

Regarding page breaks, isn't it the case that with an epub you always get a page break at the beginning of a new html/xhtml/whatever file? And is that page break preserved when the epub is converted to a KF7, KF8, dual mobi, etc.?

Yes, if you have a file (a zipped file, ePUB, etc.) that is comprised of new sections, yes, you will get a "new page" (new screen) for the first bit of text for each new HTML file. And yes, those are always preserved when you build a MOBI.

Not sure how that relates to your Word files and the upload at KDP, but...yes, that's right. What's that got to do with the Word file conversion? I'm not following the segue here?

Hitch

[lumpynose]

Originally Posted by Hitch

Yes, if you have a file (a zipped file, ePUB, etc.) that is comprised of new sections, yes, you will get a "new page" (new screen) for the first bit of text for each new HTML file. And yes, those are always preserved when you build a MOBI.

Not sure how that relates to your Word files and the upload at KDP, but...yes, that's right. What's that got to do with the Word file conversion? I'm not following the segue here?

Hitch

Since he has problems with page breaks I was thinking that it could help encourage him to doing things in epub instead of doc/docx.

[jhowell]

Originally Posted by FrustratedReader

The reason I stopped uploading ms doc or docx to Amazon was their advice to use mobi or epub, because their conversion stopped inserting page breaks. The same docx or doc imported to Kindle Creator on Win 7 (all freshly setup at their recommendation) does give page breaks. So eventually they gave up trying to figure it out and told me to upload mobi or epub from Calibre or Smashwords after they reviewed the ebooks in those formats from those sources!

I am curious whether or not you have tried opening your doc/docx in Amazon's Kindle Previewer and what the results are there regarding the preservation of page breaks.

[Quoth]

Originally Posted by Little.Egret

As to Smashwords, I last left it when you got the choice of uploading a Word for running through their 'Meatgrinder' or additionally your own ePub, The Mobi etc downloads if sold were always Smashwords conversion

They recently added mobi upload the same as the epub upload, i.e. the Download the customer gets is exactly what was uploaded. When you upload doc you have option to keep any specific mobi or epub you might have uploaded or overwrite, so fastest to upload mobi and/or epub (if you have those at end user quality) then doc.

[Quoth]

Originally Posted by jhowell

I am curious whether or not you have tried opening your doc/docx in Amazon's Kindle Previewer and what the results are there regarding the preservation of page breaks.

Amazon were not interested in that, only what happened importing to Kindle Creator. I never tried it. What would it tell me? Even the KC test was only to humour Amazon and truthfully say it worked. They lost interest when they looked at the perfect mobis created by Smashword and Calibre
"Forget about Word, just upload the mobi"

It's Amazon's problem as I didn't change anything and every other way of making a mobi from doc or docx works. So now I use the epub because it's absolutely the same as my original odt in Writer "Save As" docx. I'm only using dual mobi for preview and upload to Smashwords for mobi downloads.

Yes, I found that azw/kf8 from Calibre "displays" on the Kindle Keyboard, but not like on Kindle PW3 and only slightly different from the dual mobi which on Kindle Keyboard displays like the calibre "old mobi"/Mobi6 conversion.
The azw and dual mobi from Calibre look the same on Kindle PW3 and very similar to epub on the Kobos. The epub isn't 100% identical on Kobo Touch, Kobo H2O, PRS350, T1 and Nook Simple Touch due to the "publisher" version of the Georgia font not quite rendering the same at smaller but still perfectly readable sizes and not the same relative size to DejaVu Sans paragraphs used for Preambles and inline notes.

Where a footnote is absolutely unavoidable I do it inline as next paragraph and right justified [in square brackets DejaVu Sans 11 pt and short] with no before vertical margin and a slight after vertical margin because actual footnotes work so badly in ereaders. They should NOT jump to a page and then need a jump back, though some use a popup. Seemingly beyond the ingenuity of anyone to program to appear at the bottom of a page. The fact the pagination is user controlled by user margins and font size is irrelevant.

[Quoth]

Originally Posted by lumpynose

Since he has problems with page breaks I was thinking that it could help encourage him to doing things in epub instead of doc/docx.

I write either in plain text (notes at the very start) or using odt format on Libre Office Writer. The epub is PURELY a distribution format. You don't "do" things in it except proof read and annotate.
To proof & Annotate I ALSO "Save As" docx (best Wordprocessing format for Calibre import), two clicks to make an ePub. Another click to Save it on the Kobo Aura H2O original, where I proof read and annotate.
Then read annotations with Kobo Utilities, Copy/Paste into KATE text editor which also has tabs with places, people, events etc. Refomat using Regex. I use a tall narrow window
Open LibreOffice Writer beside it and the last version edited.
Next Save As the odt file of novel in Writer with an incremented version number. Edit all the corrections, putting a * in front of notes used in the Kate Window.
I increment the version (new file) ANY time I'm deleting as much as a paragraph or adding major amount of content. All using native "odt" format.

I only "save as" docx for import to Calibre (works better than direct odt import). The doc import to Calibre is on Windows, not Linux and not as good. Maybe it uses the MS doc to html installed with Word? I don't know.
Finally when 100% polished and read by others the odt is saved as docx and doc. Calibre makes the epub2 and dual mobi. Save all to disk. Don't view epub copy being uploaded to Smashwords as this creates a hidden reading position bookmark! Upload saved epub version to Amazon & Smashwords if the dual mobi version is perfect on the Kindle PW3 (no missing / broken TOC on the system TOC). Upload dual mobi and doc to Smashwords
By this time the book will have been read on at least three other people's Kindles, some people reading it twice. I'll have read it on ereader completely 10 to 25 times.
I'll have saved a huge amount of paper & toner. Not one paper copy. Back in early 1990s and using an Epson Ink Jet, each revision would have used half a ream of paper and a fortune of ink.
I've never printed a story or novel or a chapter since I got my first Kindle. I passed it to my wife and got a DXG when it was re-released at a discount as I thought it would do for technical PDFs (I was still doing Electronics & Programming those days). The DXG is too low resolution and not a large enough screen for almost all PDFs. Too slow for manuals too.
I was using the dreadful text file generated by the Kindle to copy back annotations.
Then I got the Kobo Aura H2O original when it arrived here retail and found that while awkward to enter annotations, reading back per book is far better.

What I've saved on paper ink/toner etc since 2014 would pay for nearly half a dozen ereaders. Over 20 completed novels and 9 to 35 revisions of each as well as many WIP.
Also copy & paste of many longer Web articles into Writer and made into ebooks to read.

I'm tempted to 10" to 12" eink, either the Sony Paper or one of the more general purpose models for PDFs. However I don't use PDF technical stuff much now. I do have a 10" tablet for "portable PDF" use. However it's dreadful.

[Quoth]

I also read lots of books written by other people on my ereaders, mostly from Gutenberg and mostly on the Kobo H2O or the Sony PRS350.
Most of the recent books I read from major publishers are on paper. They charge too much for ebooks. I've two paperbacks that came with a free ebook copy. I'd like to produce paperbacks with a single use serial code for ebook download.

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by FrustratedReader

Amazon were not interested in that, only what happened importing to Kindle Creator. I never tried it. What would it tell me? Even the KC test was only to humour Amazon and truthfully say it worked. They lost interest when they looked at the perfect mobis created by Smashword and Calibre
"Forget about Word, just upload the mobi"

It's Amazon's problem as I didn't change anything and every other way of making a mobi from doc or docx works. So now I use the epub because it's absolutely the same as my original odt in Writer "Save As" docx. I'm only using dual mobi for preview and upload to Smashwords for mobi downloads.

Not sure how you see it as "Amazon's" problem considering you're using 3rd party software to make a book that's goign to be read on someone else's retail eBook site. {shrug} It's patently not their problem. Why should they care if SW sells MOBIs or not? Or whether your mobis, created for that purpose, break where you think they should or not?

With regard to footnotes, as you say you're a former programmer, the processing power that would be needed to create them at the bottom of the page, no matter WHAT the user does, in every environment, every device, etc., should be obvious to you. Almost everyone I've ever spoken to loves linked footnotes, and I know that I do as well. Perfectly logical way to make them work.

You obvoiusly have a routine that works for you and I don't think, from this thread, that you're really interested in revisiting it, so...I'm glad it's working for you.

Good luck.


Hitch

[Quoth]

Originally Posted by Hitch

Not sure how you see it as "Amazon's" problem considering you're using 3rd party software to make a book that's goign to be read on someone else's retail eBook site. {shrug} It's patently not their problem.

Hitch

You obviously have totally missed the point.

It's Amazon's problem that they used to recommend MS Doc format upload and now that seems to be broken.

I upload epub to Amazon now instead.

The Dual Mobi creation for Smashwords has NOTHING to do with Amazon, except only Amazon sell Kindles. I never ever suggested the dual Mobi was an Amazon issue. I only mentioned the MS Doc uploading replaced by epub uploading for Amazon in passing.

The original query I asked here (and I'd not bother asking Amazon) was if any Kindle DOESN'T work with the Dual Mobi created by Calibre, as the Conversion screen in Calibre recommends choosing OLD mobi or separately using the AZW3 converter for newer Kindles.

So far there is no suggestion that dual mobi from Calibre doesn't work on something, but some Kindles will chose the older format in the dual file (supposedly mobi6 according to Calibre) even though they work in some sense with azw files (AZW3/KF8 from Calibre) and newer Kindles do chose the KF8 part.

Why do I even care? Because Amazon knows what you have and if you have uploaded a really good styled & formatted epub, they can deliver whatever your Kindle does. They don't seem to do that now with doc uploads the way they USED TO. THAT is Amazon's problem.

So why I care about Dual Mobi?
Smashwords only has one link for a Mobi download and has no idea what Kindle it's for. So rather than uploading MS doc, which doesn't give as nice a mobi as I can do with Calibre, I now upload a dual mobi, it's ONLY used for mobi downloads. Smashwords don't do anything with it. If you have a newer Kindle (PW3 anyway, maybe 2014 Touch?) then you get the appearance in the KF8 part. Owners of older Kindles get similar to what Smashwords makes from a doc upload, except it's slightly better. Possibly if they DO use Calibre it's because Calibre works best Docx -> ePub and then other formats from that epub. Certainly Calibre results are not exact using ODT (or DOC on Win7, the doc format is unavailable as an input on Linux, or was the last time I looked).

Of course life would be simpler if all ereaders supported mobi/azw and epub. That's not going to happen. I'd be delighted if Smashwords used the ePub upload for conversions and not just epub downloads.

It's certainly Amazon's problem and not mine that "doc" and "docx" uploads don't now have pagebreaks on the mobi preview download, or bought off the USA site for Kindle Keyboard. I'm not actually sure if the retail azw downloads for later Kindles lack the page breaks from the doc uploads. Anyway it looks cheap and rubbishy simply having a big gap before a new chapter heading, and it used to work. Workaround is to upload epub2.

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by FrustratedReader

You obviously have totally missed the point.

It's Amazon's problem that they used to recommend MS Doc format upload and now that seems to be broken.

For you, apparently. Doesn't seem to be for anyone else.

[snippage]

It's certainly Amazon's problem and not mine that "doc" and "docx" uploads don't now have pagebreaks on the mobi preview download, or bought off the USA site for Kindle Keyboard. I'm not actually sure if the retail azw downloads for later Kindles lack the page breaks from the doc uploads. Anyway it looks cheap and rubbishy simply having a big gap before a new chapter heading, and it used to work. Workaround is to upload epub2.

Well, I don't know what you're doing wrong, or not doing, but I just this moment--JUST this moment--uploaded a docx that was styled using a style with page-break-before: and it worked just fine. I downloaded the Preview mobi, and voila!, page breaks before the chapter heads.

Didn't do anything special. Took an old Agatha Christie (Secret Adversary) that I'd downloaded from PG, cleaned the Word file previously, and just now went in, inserted the modification to the style (page-break before in the paragraph dialogue) and it works perfectly. Works whether you use section breaks, the manual way, or with the style break. Tested both. Worked on KF8 and KF7 devices. Didn't do anything unique or special and the file isn't even in what I'd call good shape.

It's a file I'd been using for another demo purpose, so it's partly cleaned and styled...just DOCX. Nothing magical.

Perhaps it's YOUR doc or docx files, made from LO or whatever program you're using. Whatever it is, however--again, doesn't seem to be Amazon's problem.

Whatever. Of course, there's always the possibility that I'm STILL "missing the point."

Hitch

[Quoth]

Originally Posted by Hitch

Well, I don't know what you're doing wrong, or not doing, but I just this moment--JUST this moment--uploaded a docx that was styled using a style with page-break-before: and it worked just fine. I downloaded the Preview mobi, and voila!, page breaks before the chapter heads.

Whatever. Of course, there's always the possibility that I'm STILL "missing the point."

Hitch

It was some weeks ago. They may have fixed it.
Still, uploading a known good epub is FAR better results, so I don't care.

The Original Post and the thread is NOT about Amazon's doc or docx upload. It's really only about DO any kindles fail with Dual Mobi?
Clue in the title!
So yes you still missing the point.

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by FrustratedReader

It was some weeks ago. They may have fixed it.
Still, uploading a known good epub is FAR better results, so I don't care.

The Original Post and the thread is NOT about Amazon's doc or docx upload. It's really only about DO any kindles fail with Dual Mobi?
Clue in the title!
So yes you still missing the point.

Fine. Sorry, as usual, that I wasted my time. The answer is NO, they don't, because Amazon made sure that they wouldn't.

It hasn't been fixed. It wasn't broken. Not now, not before.

Hitch