Why are YA novels immediately recognizable as YA novels?

[Catlady]

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

I've counted at least 4 or 5 in this thread who have indicated a similar opinion to mine, so I'd question your claim of "most of us." Especially since I'm not entirely sure who comprises your "us."

As for it being "such a big deal for me," all I can say is ... so what? We all have things that bother us more or less than others. Then we talk about those differences.

"Most of us" = most of us who buy books for that age group. Yes, that's subjective and anecdotal. But the fact that it's been a well-known and used label for decades indicates that people find something useful in it.

[haertig]

All's I did was ask "What makes YA (Young Adult) novels immediately recognizable?" I got many good answers - thanks! But I didn't mean to start a fight over the meaning or usefulness of the YA label. I never would have imagined there would be so much passion about that. I do not mind a thread wandering from the original topic - that's often times what makes them fun - but I apologize for this thread going down the toilet. It is still civil ... barely. I hope it does not degrade further.

[DiapDealer]

Barely civil? I would say downright civil, myself. There's been no name-calling, personal attacks, or rancor on my part, and I've detected none from others. *shrug*

[hildea]

Originally Posted by Catlady

Neither do any of the other broad categories tell anyone much. Mystery/thriller can apply to Sherlock Holmes stories, cozy series, espionage novels, or domestic noir. Science fiction/fantasy can include anything from outer space tales to fairy tale retellings. Romances can range from sweet to borderline soft-core porn. It's not like YA is the only label, plus publishers often include a more specific age range on YA books.

What makes YA different from the other categories you mention, is that even after reading a book, I can't tell if it's YA or not. When I picked samples for post 39, I was suprised by a lot of books in my library, both ways (books I thought were YA weren't, and vice versa).

Originally Posted by haertig

All's I did was ask "What makes YA (Young Adult) novels immediately recognizable?"

My answer is that the question is wrong A lot of YA is not recognisable, either immediately or after finishing the book. It seems that many others here agree.

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

Barely civil? I would say downright civil, myself. There's been no name-calling, personal attacks, or rancor on my part, and I've detected none from others. *shrug*

I agree. It's interesting to see other's views, and I haven't seen any lack of civility here, just polite disagreement.

[DiapDealer]

Originally Posted by hildea

It's interesting to see other's views, and I haven't seen any lack of civility here, just polite disagreement.

Same. And if my beef with the YA label is being misconstrued as disdain for those who enjoy writing or reading the works that ultimately gets saddled with the label; I can assure you that nothing is further from the truth.

As an Adult Adult, I've enjoyed many works that were labeled as YA, and I've disliked many works that probably should have been labeled YA and weren't (and every scenario in between). But unlike the other (sub)labels out there, never once have I thought to myself, "Hey, I think I'm in the mood for some YA."

[fjtorres]

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

As an Adult Adult, I've enjoyed many works that were labeled as YA, and I've disliked many works that probably should have been labeled YA and weren't (and every scenario in between). But unlike the other (sub)labels out there, never once have I thought to myself, "Hey, I think I'm in the mood for some YA."

Do you often pick up a YA book on purpose, *because* it is marketed as YA?
The closest I've ever come is when the summary firmly establishes it in one of the classic genres.

Where I find the tag most amorphous is that something like John Ringo's early DARK TIDE RISING series ticks off enough of the standard marketing flags that if BAEN wanted to market them as YA for 16 year olds none could deny them. As in:

- dystopian post-apocalyptic setting? check
- unusual cute young female protagonist (tall gun-crazy 14 year old)? check
- abundant "fantasy" violence? check
- simple linear narrative? check
- teenager leads adults? check

It's only in the latter volumes that the narrative refocuses primarily on the parents.
BAEN is too honorable to market the series as anything but a post-apocalyptic technothriller but nothing prevents them passing it off as YA. I see that as an issue with the tag, not the books.

For that matter, the books that launched the tag, TWILIGHT and HUNGER GAMES, have nothing in common beyond a young protagonist and selling by the boatload, with one being a good thoughtful book and the other...

Anybody who picks up TWILIGHT expecting HUNGER GAMES depth is in for a shock.

[DiapDealer]

Originally Posted by fjtorres

Do you often pick up a YA book on purpose, *because* it is marketed as YA?

Pretty much never. I typically read a work that others have labeled as YA because someone whose opinion I trust has said, "I've got a book I think you'd enjoy."

[Catlady]

Seems to me that some of you folks expect an awful lot from the YA label. It's meant to be a broad category. Do you have the same concern about books labeled as children's books?

Of course it bleeds into other broad categories. So do other classifications.

I do agree with those who've objected to the recategorization of classic books as YA. I think it's largely because they're books that have young people as protagonists and get assigned in high school, but they were never written for young adults--there wasn't a middle ground back then between childhood and adulthood.

The label that annoys me no end is "adult." Why did it come to mean porn, erotica, etc., rather than simply books that are not aimed at a juvenile audience?

[fjtorres]

Originally Posted by Catlady

The label that annoys me no end is "adult." Why did it come to mean porn, erotica, etc., rather than simply books that are not aimed at a juvenile audience?

I thought that was mostly a conceit of porn shops.
In the publishing world "adult fiction" is a catch-all super category for everything that is neither kid, religion, or fiction. Like this breakdown:

https://www.statista.com/statistics/...on-unit-sales/

[hildea]

Originally Posted by Catlady

Seems to me that some of you folks expect an awful lot from the YA label. It's meant to be a broad category. Do you have the same concern about books labeled as children's books?

What I expect from all labels is that after I've read a book, I can mostly tell whether that label applies to that book or not. There's a lot of variation in children's books, but most of the time I know if a book I'm reading is a children's book or not.
If I want to know if a book is YA or not, I usually have to check how it's labelled in a book store, I can't tell from the book itself.

The label that annoys me no end is "adult." Why did it come to mean porn, erotica, etc., rather than simply books that are not aimed at a juvenile audience?

Yes, that's pretty silly.

Originally Posted by fjtorres

...
- teenager leads adults? check
...

This reminds me of one of my favourite passages in one of my favourite books (which happens to be YA, and engages with a lot of tropes in interesting ways).

Originally Posted by "In Other Lands" by Sarah Rees Brennan

“Ah, you’re so much fun,” said Louise. “Write Luke a letter tonight, okay? He’s nervous about taking over command.”
“Ahahaha,” said Elliot. “Now you are the one who is being hilarious, because you did not leave a fourteen-year-old in command of armed forces.”
Louise hesitated. “You have to understand. They’re doing better than okay. Better than all the grown men I have under my command. I couldn’t have left my men with anyone else. They wouldn’t have followed anyone else when there was a Sunborn to lead them.”
“Obviously you’re delirious from some sort of medication,” said Elliot. “Or maybe I’m delirious, because you talk and all I can hear is la la la suicide mission la la la your fourteen-year-old brother!”
“Serene’s there to help him,” said Louise. “I left the command to both of them, really.”
“Serene is, what’s the word I’m searching for here, oh yes, ALSO FOURTEEN.”
“What about you, Little Red?” asked Louise. “Getting tired of fiddling with those treaties? Going to leave it all to the grown-ups?”
Elliot opened his mouth to argue. He knew that Luke and Serene were exceptional. He had been told that and had seen that over and over again. But shouldn’t the adults, if they loved them, if they were responsible for them and cared for them more than for anything else, the way adults were supposed to . . . shouldn’t they try to stop them saving the day, even if they could do it? Unless Elliot’s father was only the most honest of the adults, and all adults were willing to betray children if offered an incentive.
Surely there had been other soldiers, not as good as Luke but grown, with strength a kid could not have and experience a kid could not have. For a fourteen-year-old to come to the fore as the obvious leader, others must have made the choice, conscious or not, to step back. Elliot did not know how they could live with letting this happen, letting someone this young be the leader and the sacrifice.

[Victoria]

Originally Posted by fjtorres

The category existed 50 years ago but those books were written for a young audience whereas a lot of today's YA have the tag retroactively actively applied to titles that weren't written for young audiences and often don't really fit the category.

Fair point. The books we surveyed were considered classics and were definitely written for younger audiences.

Originally Posted by Catlady

Neither do any of the other broad categories tell anyone much. Mystery/thriller can apply to Sherlock Holmes stories, cozy series, espionage novels, or domestic noir.

I agree. It’s off topic, but ‘mystery/thriller/suspense’ is a pet peeve of mine. A cozy mystery is very different reading experience from a true thriller. But Amazon treats them as one category. Thank goodness for online reviews to help sort the the books out.

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

Maybe you didn't mean to, but you're helping prove my point just the same. All those other labels can get fuzzy, sure, but at least they tell me something about the book. YA doesn't tell me if there's a mystery at the heart of it--be it sherlockian, noir or cozy. YA doesn't tell me if it's science-fiction (or fantasy). YA doesn't tell me if it's Romance. Those other labels tell me at least something about the story. YA only tells me there's probably young protagonists and nothing more.

Again, off topic, but your point applies to a lot of things. Where I live there’s a chronic lack of specialized services for young people. Instead, there’s usually an amorphous “children services”. Yet we never combine all programs that serve adults under a single “adult services” umbrella.

[DiapDealer]

Originally Posted by Victoria

Again, off topic, but your point applies to a lot of things. Where I live there’s a chronic lack of specialized services for young people. Instead, there’s usually an amorphous “children services”. Yet we never combine all programs that serve adults under a single “adult services” umbrella.

And again: "Young" and "Adult" are two different things to me. There's a very small overlap where youth and adult can be used to describe a person. And I've found that today's publishing YA label doesn't really even target that overlap. It targets children, and it targets adults who enjoy reading things that are labeled as YA. It exists because people like the books that get the label. It's like a snake eating its own tail. It has almost no meaning whatsoever any more.

[DoctorOhh]

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

I typically read a work that others have labeled as YA because someone whose opinion I trust has said, "I've got a book I think you'd enjoy."

This concept worked great for me until my teenage daughter roped me into reading the twilight trilogy.

[pwalker8]

Originally Posted by DoctorOhh

This concept worked great for me until my teenage daughter roped me into reading the twilight trilogy.

Yea, a lady friend of mine told me that I had to read Twilight not long after it came out. Tried it, lasted about 20 or 30 pages. I have no idea why she thought I would like it.

[DiapDealer]

Originally Posted by pwalker8

Yea, a lady friend of mine told me that I had to read Twilight not long after it came out. Tried it, lasted about 20 or 30 pages. I have no idea why she thought I would like it.

It's because most people (even close friends) don't try all that hard to ensure books they recommend are actually a good match for the recommendee's tastes. They just want to get someone else to read a book they liked. I don't really fault them for it--it's human nature after all. But I've found that being truly "good" at recommending books others might enjoy involves more work than most are willing to put in. And unless one happens to be a member of a reading-cult where members have the exact same tastes as each other, it occasionally even involves recommending books they didn't really care all that much for themselves.