Do some publishers have any idea?

[leebase]

Economics are complicated...and almost entirely irrelevant from a consumer's pov. Goods can be sold below cost, at cost, with a bit of profit or a huge profit. There are reasons producers would do any of the above.

As a consumer....there is only "what value to I derive from buying a product, and what am I willing to pay for that value". It does not matter to me if the producer (or the complete supply chain) is losing money, breaking even, or making any sort of profit.

Books are not commodities. Not in the milk and eggs sense. I don't read enough to be in a position to have to experiment with lots and lots of new authors. I have my dozen or so "known to me" authors. Not just any "military science fiction" book will do. I want a Weber, a Flint, or a Ringo. They are proven to me such that I buy what they sell pretty much right when they release it. If they were selling at $50 a pop, I probably wouldn't. But at $14.99 -- a new book by my favorite authors in one of my favorite series is a no brainer for me.

Are they making a little or a lot? Is the author getting his fair share? Is the publisher making all the money? Is Amazon making all the money? Are they losing money? Did the Author spend a year or two writing the book? Did the author pound out the book over a couple weeks at the beach? None of this means a hill of beans to me.

Would I pay $14.99 for a "new to me" author? Probably not unless it came with excellent promotion from people I trust. I do buy up a lot of $1 to $3 books from new authors because of Amazon's promotions to me. So far it's been no more "hit or miss" than when I was a kid checking out books from the library or ordering from Weekly Reader.

In general, I do not find the Indie authors, even those I like, to be on par with the Tom Clancy's, James Pattersons, Orson Scott Card's of the world. But then, my sample size is impossibly small compared to what is out there than I haven't read.

I bought every Harry Potter book after the first, the day it came out -- in hard back. I lined up with my kids at midnight for the privilege of reading the book first. You had to consume it the first weekend in order to not have spoilers and to be chatting excitedly about it on Monday.

I can't stand hard back books. Never have liked them. But I wanted the story and I wanted it at the start, and that was the format and the price.

99.999% of the rest of my reading was always paperback. I liked the size, I liked the price. And I was a kid with little money.

eBooks really don't change any of that. No matter what they are priced.

[pwalker8]

Originally Posted by leebase

Economics are complicated...and almost entirely irrelevant from a consumer's pov. Goods can be sold below cost, at cost, with a bit of profit or a huge profit. There are reasons producers would do any of the above.

As a consumer....there is only "what value to I derive from buying a product, and what am I willing to pay for that value". It does not matter to me if the producer (or the complete supply chain) is losing money, breaking even, or making any sort of profit.

Books are not commodities. Not in the milk and eggs sense. I don't read enough to be in a position to have to experiment with lots and lots of new authors. I have my dozen or so "known to me" authors. Not just any "military science fiction" book will do. I want a Weber, a Flint, or a Ringo. They are proven to me such that I buy what they sell pretty much right when they release it. If they were selling at $50 a pop, I probably wouldn't. But at $14.99 -- a new book by my favorite authors in one of my favorite series is a no brainer for me.

Are they making a little or a lot? Is the author getting his fair share? Is the publisher making all the money? Is Amazon making all the money? Are they losing money? Did the Author spend a year or two writing the book? Did the author pound out the book over a couple weeks at the beach? None of this means a hill of beans to me.

Would I pay $14.99 for a "new to me" author? Probably not unless it came with excellent promotion from people I trust. I do buy up a lot of $1 to $3 books from new authors because of Amazon's promotions to me. So far it's been no more "hit or miss" than when I was a kid checking out books from the library or ordering from Weekly Reader.

In general, I do not find the Indie authors, even those I like, to be on par with the Tom Clancy's, James Pattersons, Orson Scott Card's of the world. But then, my sample size is impossibly small compared to what is out there than I haven't read.

I bought every Harry Potter book after the first, the day it came out -- in hard back. I lined up with my kids at midnight for the privilege of reading the book first. You had to consume it the first weekend in order to not have spoilers and to be chatting excitedly about it on Monday.

I can't stand hard back books. Never have liked them. But I wanted the story and I wanted it at the start, and that was the format and the price.

99.999% of the rest of my reading was always paperback. I liked the size, I liked the price. And I was a kid with little money.

eBooks really don't change any of that. No matter what they are priced.

I agree with a lot of this.

With regards to piracy, I suspect that from a purely publisher/author point of view, there is little difference between piracy, sales in used books stores and sales to libraries (once you get past the initial reader) and people loaning books to their friends. Those are all situations where the publisher/author doesn't see a dime. So, I suspect that piracy and all sorts of non sales issues were factored into the price long ago.

BTW, piracy didn't start with ebooks. I can remember Jerry Pournelle complaining about piracy back in the 80's when he saw one of his books being sold by a vendor in some 3rd world country. Of course, here in the US, we had the famous unauthorized (i.e. pirated) version of LOTR back when the US didn't recognize foreign copyrights. Publishers have a lot of experience with the effects of piracy.

[lumpynose]

Originally Posted by pwalker8

BTW, piracy didn't start with ebooks.

There was (is?) also something to do with paperback books that had their covers torn off. My guess is that the bookseller or wholesaler could get a refund (partial or whatever) for unsold books and rather than returning the whole book they could return the covers. My grandfather was a voracious reader of westerns and many of them had the covers torn off. Sometimes in older books you'll see something in the first few pages about if the cover is torn off you shouldn't have bought it or something.

[lumpynose]

Originally Posted by pwalker8

Of course, here in the US, we had the famous unauthorized (i.e. pirated) version of LOTR back when the US didn't recognize foreign copyrights.

There was also something with fonts that I'd read about. When the US was in its early days the printers couldn't afford the expensive European fonts and they pirated their designs. The US passed laws that the name of the font could be copyrighted but not the outline/shape. That's apparently why you'd see, for example, Helvetica clones with names like Swiss, Berne, etc.

[Deskisamess]

Don't they do the same thing with magazines even now? I used to have an acquaintance who worked at a local Rite Aid. When the new crop of magazine would come in, they would tear the front cover off the old ones, and toss the magazines. I assumed the covers were sent back to the sellers to prove that they hadn't been sold.

He would save certain magazines to give to friends. On the sly of course.

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by lumpynose

There was also something with fonts that I'd read about. When the US was in its early days the printers couldn't afford the expensive European fonts and they pirated their designs. The US passed laws that the name of the font could be copyrighted but not the outline/shape. That's apparently why you'd see, for example, Helvetica clones with names like Swiss, Berne, etc.

Lumpers,

I think you're thinking of the Futura thing. Back in the mid-late 20's, Futura was released, and it was "homaged" to beat the band. It was one of the most widely ripped off fonts, ever. People think it's Helvetica or Arial that gets ripped off, but really, it's Futura.

Hitch

[pwalker8]

Originally Posted by lumpynose

There was (is?) also something to do with paperback books that had their covers torn off. My guess is that the bookseller or wholesaler could get a refund (partial or whatever) for unsold books and rather than returning the whole book they could return the covers. My grandfather was a voracious reader of westerns and many of them had the covers torn off. Sometimes in older books you'll see something in the first few pages about if the cover is torn off you shouldn't have bought it or something.

That's an also. You are correct that book sellers would tear off the cover and toss the rest in the trash. Some people (and some dishonest book sellers) would then get the rest of the book out of the trash. That's more fraud than piracy. In third world countries, printers would simply print a bunch of copies without giving the author a dime. I'm not sure of the precise mechanics of it, I just remember Pournelle putting it in one of his columns.

[lumpynose]

Originally Posted by pwalker8

That's an also. You are correct that book sellers would tear off the cover and toss the rest in the trash. Some people (and some dishonest book sellers) would then get the rest of the book out of the trash. That's more fraud than piracy. In third world countries, printers would simply print a bunch of copies without giving the author a dime. I'm not sure of the precise mechanics of it, I just remember Pournelle putting it in one of his columns.

Yep, at the school where I worked a Chinese grad student from Taiwan had a bunch of US computer science books that had been bootlegged and reprinted. The paper was very flimsy, like what's in a phone book.

[binaryhermit]

I'd also like to add, the more independent publishers seem to have more of a clue, but when you're trying to sell backlist or non-name-brand authors, you kinda have to be smarter about your prospects.

[pwalker8]

Originally Posted by binaryhermit

I'd also like to add, the more independent publishers seem to have more of a clue, but when you're trying to sell backlist or non-name-brand authors, you kinda have to be smarter about your prospects.

Certainly if you are trying to build an audience then you need to do things to 1) get your books noticed and 2) persuade people to give them a try. Discount pricing can help with #2. I frequently will buy books that look interesting and are below a certain price point even if I'm not familiar with the author. That's why most publishers have sales. Tor gives away ebooks, usually from their lesser know authors. Baen has their free library.

For most authors, getting your books noticed is the hard part. Some publishers are good at marketing new authors, others don't even seem to try. On Amazon, they put their "feature" books (i.e. someone gave them money to pimp the book) at the front of the results of a search, one of the reasons that if you were to search for Roger Zelazny in the Kindle store, the first book listed might be by an author other than Zelazny.

[leebase]

Well....I can vouch for Amazon doing targeted genre advertising of their indie authors. I get constant adds for military science fiction...even on Facebook. After I bought 30 or so I had to stop myself. No idea if they are good books yet, haven’t gotten around to even reading one of them.

Targeted advertising plus cheap prices were working with this customer

[kyrilson]

Originally Posted by leebase

Well....I can vouch for Amazon doing targeted genre advertising of their indie authors. I get constant adds for military science fiction...even on Facebook. After I bought 30 or so I had to stop myself. No idea if they are good books yet, haven’t gotten around to even reading one of them.

Targeted advertising plus cheap prices were working with this customer

I get a lot of these ads too. Some of the books are surprisingly good, though. Worth the low cost to me, usually.

And Kindle Unlimited has been great for me. When I first started using it, the books were mostly terrible, but now, most of the ones I end up checking out are usually pretty decent. I don't know if that's because the quality has gone up, or if Amazon has just gotten better at figuring out what I like. Maybe a little of both.

[Deskisamess]

I can easily get my fill of the light fiction genre that I like to read via KU. If I run into an author who just flat out can't write, I return the book and get another. I've found new authors to follow as well as new ones to ignore. That's a win-win.

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by kyrilson

I get a lot of these ads too. Some of the books are surprisingly good, though. Worth the low cost to me, usually.

And Kindle Unlimited has been great for me. When I first started using it, the books were mostly terrible, but now, most of the ones I end up checking out are usually pretty decent. I don't know if that's because the quality has gone up, or if Amazon has just gotten better at figuring out what I like. Maybe a little of both.

Y'know, me too on KU. Agreed that originally, I rolled my eyes and wondered what the Hades I was funding at the Zon, for my $10 clams a month or what-have-you, but now, I've found some authors that I've enjoyed. Not reading Tolstoy, mind you, but for potato-chip books, it's a bargain.

(I do find that I've discovered a couple of authors that haven't yet developed that typical "depth" of writing that you find with trade-pubbed fiction, often; just as one example, using mirrored subplots to more fully examine a theme. Much like the old kvetch about Chinese food-- that you eat it and 30 minutes later, you're hungry again--I do find those a bit unsatisfying. I hope that some of these folks develop that, but I wonder, in today's world, sans writing groups, writing conferences, critique groups and coaches, etc., why the heck would they ever feel compelled to do that? And I'm certainly not presumptuous enough to email him/her/them and suggest, "hey, why don't you broaden/deepen your novels by doing this or that?," inasmuch as the voracious reader in me wishes I would.)

Hitch

[Hellmark]

Originally Posted by HarryT

We've had this discussion a thousand times before and, as always, the answer is very simple: if you think a book is too expensive, don't buy it. If a sufficient proportion of other potential buyers think similarly to you, the publisher will either adjust their prices or go out of business. If sufficient people think that the price is fair and buy it, they won't.

Personally I think ebooks are very reasonably priced. I buy mainly "back catalogue" crime fiction and pay around half to two thirds the price of the paperback, which seems eminently fair to me. Eg Dick Francis' ebooks at Amazon UK are £3.99; the paperback is £7.99.

The problem with this is, many people are doing that, and the publishers are taking it as "People aren't interested in ebooks" instead of "We are selling ebooks at too high of a price".

Yeah, back catalog stuff is often cheaper. However, newer stuff, it isn't uncommon to see ebooks for as much as the paperback or more. Hell, there are times I've seen the ebook go for more than the hardcover.