Are you prepared to pay the same price for an ebook as for the print book?

[viceant]

Originally Posted by DMcCunney

You shouldn't be. As mentioned up thread, the print/bind/warehouse/distribute steps account for about %10-%15 percent of the average book's budget. 80% or more of the costs of publication are incurred before he book reaches the stage of being published in any form.



If you dropped the printed book entirely, the cost saving would not be enough to permit the pricing you would like to see from traditional publishers.

______

Dennis

I think publishers are lying us about paper books costs you mentioned. There are many ebooks which prices are half the printed books.

And if they believe on Laffer's curve, why they don't offer much more cheap ebooks?

Sorry, but I almost never believe what a seller says about what he/she/it sells...

[DMcCunney]

Originally Posted by viceant

I think publishers are lying us about paper books costs you mentioned. There are many ebooks which prices are half the printed books.

And where do those books come from? The economics for self-published/indie-published books is very different than for traditional publishers.

And if they believe on Laffer's curve, why they don't offer much more cheap ebooks?

If the publisher in question is a traditional publisher, they can't. They'd lose money.

Sorry, but I almost never believe what a seller says about what he/she/it sells...

Believe what you like. I've been following traditional publishing for over 40 years. I know people in the industry. I've seen book budgets. I know what the actual costs are for print/bind/warehouse/distribute on a title.

Let's look at what happens in a typical book sale to a traditional publisher. Publishers work on a project basis, so people working on a book will fill out time sheets documenting the time spent on that particular book.

A writer finishes a manuscript. $DEITY smiles on them, and they interest a reputable agent in representing them. The agent successfully places a book with a major trade publisher, and an editor makes an offer. The size of the offer will depend upon the author's track record. A brand new author will get a far lower offer than an established author who has a good sales record.

The agent will sit down with the publisher's contracts folks to negotiate a deal. (And it's why you want an agent. An agent can negotiate a contract better than you can - it's her job.) A contract is agreed upon and an advance is offered to the author for the right to publish the book.

Costs have been incurred. The time of the acquiring editor in looking at the book, deciding it's something her house can sell, and deciding to make an offer, the time of the contracts folks who actually write the contract, and the amount provided to the author as an advance.

The next step is developmental editing. A line edit occurs to try to improve the manuscript and polish it for publication. The line editor does not have to be the acquiring editor (though in the case of fiction ,it probably will be.) A back and forth iterative process ensues until there is agreement on a final manuscript between author and editor.

More costs - the time of the editor doing the developmental edit.

Now a completed manuscript is ready to be turned into a book. It must be copy edited and proofread. More costs - the time of the folks who do that, who are professionals expecting pro pay scales.

The end result is a final manuscript. It goes to DTP. DTP does markup and typesetting, working to specs provided by a book interior designer. The end result of that process is a PDF the printer will make plates from to print the book. So you have the cost of the book designer's time, and the DTP specialist's time.

Meanwhile, the book needs a cover. An art director will commission one. You have the time of the Art Director, and the fee paid to the cover artist. The cover will be married with the interior to produce the completed book.

Depending upon the book, the publisher's legal department may be involved. Controversial books produce lawsuits, and Legal's concern will be that anything the book says that might provoke a suit can be proven to be factual and the publisher can defend itself in court. So you may need to add the Legal time to the costs.

You also have the cost of overhead. Publishers have employees not directly involved in the production of the book who must be paid, plus rent and utilities for their offices, and estimated taxes. An allocated share of overhead will be part of the book's costs.

Please note that all of those costs are incurred before the book is actually published in print or electronic form. Tell me which you think can be dropped to lower the cost enough to let you get a cheaper price?

If what you read is fiction, and you can find stuff self/indie published that satisfies you, you can get the pricing you like.

I read far more non-fiction these days, and the stuff I read does not get issued as self/indie published work. It can't be.

An example here is a book called The Path Between the Seas, by David McCullough. I have it in paper and electronic form. It's the best history I am aware of of the building of the Panama Canal. It won the National Book Award for History. It was the author's full time job during the period in which it was written. That won't happen as self/indie published. It needs a traditional publisher to subsidize the writer while to book is in process.

I'm on a budget. I can't afford all of the books I might like. But one of the first things I learned as a small child was that I couldn't have anything I wanted, when I wanted it, just because I wanted it. When I became an adult, I learned that I needed to prioritize and make choices. I couldn't buy all the books I wanted, so which were most important to me?

And ultimately, my scarce resource isn't money - it's time. I have more books now than I have time to read. I tell folks "If I could learn to read a different book with each eye, I might reduce the rate of growth of the To Be Read queue." I also say the nice thing about eBooks is that you don't have to call the EMTs is my To Be Read stack topples over on me. (You would it the hardcover stack ever did.)

I don't blame you for wanting lower costs. I just don't see that happening, for reasons outlined above.
______
Dennis

[viceant]

Originally Posted by DMcCunney

And where do those books come from? The economics for self-published/indie-published books is very different than for traditional publishers
_____Dennis

They come from traditional publishers. You can tell your story, but facts are facts:
how do you interpret this? https://www.booksamillion.com/p/Beha...=7557795320734

[darryl]

Originally Posted by DMcCunney

The agent will sit down with the publisher's contracts folks to negotiate a deal. (And it's why you want an agent. An agent can negotiate a contract better than you can - it's her job.) A contract is agreed upon and an advance is offered to the author for the right to publish the book.

Dennis. Your post has much in it which I think is of merit. But I certainly take issue with the above. Authors should certainly read the various posts and books on the subject by Kristine Kathryn Rusch before committing their fortunes to an agent. The conclusion is obvious. Don't. Use a lawyer or other professional negotiator. The main value of agents now is, at least in my view, to get your foot in the front door of traditional publishing. Of course this assumes that there is value in going tradpub, which is by no means true for many authors.

Originally Posted by DMcCunney

Please note that all of those costs are incurred before the book is actually published in print or electronic form. Tell me which you think can be dropped to lower the cost enough to let you get a cheaper price?

The only ones who can really answer this one are the publishers themselves, and possibly in relation to each individual book. I would ask instead, are there no worthwhile cost savings to be found anywhere in the process? Is it totally efficient? I would be very surprised to see such efficiency in an industry dominated by an oligopoly with no price competition at the retail level, at least before the success of the Kindle and KDP. Having said that, Tradpub books are never going to be able to compete on price with lower-tier less professional Indies who simply don't pay for professional editing, covers etc. Nor would they want to. The Indies they are competing with are usually those produced with the help of professionals and incurring some or all of the same costs. Some of these Indies are e-book only with even further cost advantages and far less complex considerations in price setting. Even the Big 5 are experimenting with their pricing, but some of the more innovative publishers using a tradpub model are doing well at lower prices.

I once thought differently but now I just can't see New Release Big 5 e-books ever being priced significantly cheaper than their print counterparts. Why on earth would a Big 5 publisher ever risk cannibalising its new release print book sales with a cheaper e-book. Far better to pick up the print book sales for each edition, pick up the e-book sales at the higher price and only then pick up e-book sales at Indie-competitive prices. After all, the results of this poll, imperfect as it is, indicate that this practice does not lose a large volume of sales, with most who won't pay the full price prepared to pick the e-book up when the price comes down. If anything, I can see some of the more successful Indie authors at least experimenting with raising their initial prices to capture sales from those who are prepared to pay the higher price rather than wait.

[pwalker8]

I do get that some people don't see any value in having an agent or having a publisher. Of course, a lot of people don't see the value of having a real estate agent and prefer to sell their house themselves to save the agent's fee. Sometimes it works out, sometimes it doesn't.

The bottom line is that a good agent knows the business and has a much better idea than most of what the market is for a given book. You might think that you are going to get 6 figures for your great American novel, but the odds are against you. Yes, there are bad agents out there but there is a reason why most successful authors tend to think very highly of their agent. Citing one unhappy mid-tier author doesn't counter that.

[darryl]

@pwalker8. I have little experience so far as publishing contracts are concerned. Kris Rusch does. As does PG of the Passive Voice blog fame. He commented somewhat flippantly at the end of the post HERE that:

He’s never actually seen a contract from Big Publishing that did not include unfair provisions, but perhaps one exists somewhere. In a virtual universe.

I quote Kris Rusch because what she says makes sense. She points out the built-in conflict of interest between the agent's interest in maintaining good relationships with publishers and representing their client's interest. Or of course their own interests. Nate over at the Digital Reader posted THIS recently. The conduct described in the notable quote immediately below would seem to amount to criminal conduct if the agreement is not disclosed to the client.

Over the past decade a number of the larger talent agencies had developed the practice of negotiating their own contracts with studios that created conflicts of interest between the agents and their putative clients.

THIS link illustrates a case where no disclosure seems to have been made.

This does not of course mean that all agents are bad. But it does illustrate the dangers inherent in dealing with even larger well respected agencies. Most authors seem to get on very well with their agents right up until the point things go sour.

Kris Rusch also points out that agents seldom hold legal qualifications, and may well be breaking the law when they advise on and negotiate contracts. My current view, admittedly as an outsider, is that only authors who are seeking traditional publication need an agent, and only then to reach publishers who essentially deal only through agents or even particular agents. I would advise any author who goes this way to retain a lawyer to advise and negotiate any contract which may result, though I expect many agents will prove to be resistant to doing so.

[pwalker8]

Originally Posted by darryl

@pwalker8. I have little experience so far as publishing contracts are concerned. Kris Rusch does. As does PG of the Passive Voice blog fame. He commented somewhat flippantly at the end of the post HERE that:



I quote Kris Rusch because what she says makes sense. She points out the built-in conflict of interest between the agent's interest in maintaining good relationships with publishers and representing their client's interest. Or of course their own interests. Nate over at the Digital Reader posted THIS recently. The conduct described in the notable quote immediately below would seem to amount to criminal conduct if the agreement is not disclosed to the client.



THIS link illustrates a case where no disclosure seems to have been made.

This does not of course mean that all agents are bad. But it does illustrate the dangers inherent in dealing with even larger well respected agencies. Most authors seem to get on very well with their agents right up until the point things go sour.

Kris Rusch also points out that agents seldom hold legal qualifications, and may well be breaking the law when they advise on and negotiate contracts. My current view, admittedly as an outsider, is that only authors who are seeking traditional publication need an agent, and only then to reach publishers who essentially deal only through agents or even particular agents. I would advise any author who goes this way to retain a lawyer to advise and negotiate any contract which may result, though I expect many agents will prove to be resistant to doing so.

Like I say, one mid tier disgruntled author doesn't counter the hundreds of successful authors who public thank their agents whenever they produce a new book in my mind. Yes, I understand the "conflict of interest" theory. I see that mentioned with regards to real estate agents as well. Perhaps it's true for poor agents, but good agents understand that having good word of mouth from satisfied clients requires giving the client good advice and working in the client's best interest.

There is a reason that your basic random contract lawyer who doesn't understand the business may not be your best bet for contract negotiations. Someone who knows the business is more likely to understand what is the norm and what the true gotcha's are. Plus each author is a little different in what they want.

[pwalker8]

More on topic of what you are prepared to pay, is the idea of how long are you willing to wait to read the book, which I believe has been mentioned earlier in the thread.

Baen books has the advance reader's copy concept where if you are willing to pay for it, you can buy an ebook some 3 or 4 months before it's scheduled to be published. I believe that it's normally the version that they send out to reviewers, though the disclaimer mentions that it's not the final version and there has been at least one book where the published version was noticeably changed from the advanced reader version.

One I'm looking at right now is Ringo's River of Night. I can buy it now for $15, or I can wait and buy the July monthly bundle of 7 books for $18 (only 3 new though), or wait for it to be published and buy it for the kindle price likely around $10.

Baen has been doing the advanced reader copy for quite a few years and obviously it's been successful for them, at least they still are doing it. I know that I've bought several advanced reader copies from my favorite authors over the years.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by pwalker8

One I'm looking at right now is Ringo's River of Night. I can buy it now for $15, or I can wait and buy the July monthly bundle of 7 books for $18 (only 3 new though), or wait for it to be published and buy it for the kindle price likely around $10.

Forgive a minor correction, but each month's "Webscription" release actually contains four new books, not three. Sometimes, admittedly, these "new" books are repackaged versions of old releases - omnibus editions, etc - but nominally at least $18 buys you four new books.

[DiapDealer]

In keeping with my previous answer: I am still willing to make my decision on whether to buy an ebook or not without even considering the print book price. The print book price is completely irrelevant to my deliberation. I'm not looking to buy it (print), so it isn't a factor.

[Apache]

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

In keeping with my previous answer: I am still willing to make my decision on whether to buy an ebook or not without even considering the print book price. The print book price is completely irrelevant to my deliberation. I'm not looking to buy it (print), so it isn't a factor.

I do not look at the price of print books either when deciding to buy an eBook.
Apache

[pwalker8]

Originally Posted by HarryT

Forgive a minor correction, but each month's "Webscription" release actually contains four new books, not three. Sometimes, admittedly, these "new" books are repackaged versions of old releases - omnibus editions, etc - but nominally at least $18 buys you four new books.

Not in this case, all the books other than River of Night, Marque of Caine and Tyger Burning are already available and can be purchased in the Kindle store. If there is a fourth book, then it's not listed.

[pwalker8]

Originally Posted by Apache

I do not look at the price of print books either when deciding to buy an eBook.
Apache

Given that I mostly look in the kindle store, a lot of the time I don't even see the price of the print book.

[leebase]

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

In keeping with my previous answer: I am still willing to make my decision on whether to buy an ebook or not without even considering the print book price. The print book price is completely irrelevant to my deliberation. I'm not looking to buy it (print), so it isn't a factor.

Ditto

[haertig]

If I look at an eBook, and my mind says to me, "that price seems too high", then I will go look at the price for the book in mass market paperback format, preferably used. I might possibly buy that if it is significantly cheaper. But other than a fallback in the case of an eBook already judged to be overpriced, the price of a paper book is no longer a consideration for me (although it was, in the past). e.g., if an eBook is, say, $5.99, then there is no reason for me to go check the paper book price. If the eBook is $10.99, then I will check the paper book price. Although I will, always, go check if the eBook is available from one of my libraries before considering purchasing it, no matter what it costs. "Try before you buy". If I can try it for free from a library, to see if I like the book, I will always do that. Then in the case where I really, really liked it, I may decide to go purchase it (I rarely do, since re-reading is rare for me, but occasionally I will). I'm talking about entertainment novels here. Technical books are a totally different story.