File size Sigil vs Kindle Create - Page 2

Kiruhdu · 04-11-2019, 08:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by exaltedwombat

Well, one day our customers are going to realise that if they write their books in Word using simple, consistent styling, we sometimes have very little value to add in creating a tidy, readable eBook.

But I can remember just ONE instance where I delivered a conversion with a nominal invoice, explaining that I'd be embarassed to charge more for a 15-minute job. I don't think we need to worry too much. :-)

I can't understand why anyone nowadays use MS-Word. Especially when dealing with e-books!
Atlantis-Word-Processor is a much better wordprocessor and is able to produce epubs as well as the kindle-format; it deals with *.doc, *.docx and *.rtf - so who needs MS-Word!?

Turtle91 · 04-11-2019, 09:12 AM

"is able to produce epubs" is not a very valid argument in, and of, itself. IIRC Atlantis' coding is one of the worst not very good either....

You still need to be able to understand basic coding....

DiapDealer · 04-11-2019, 09:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kiruhdu

so who needs MS-Word!?

Those who have used for it decades and have no need or desire to retool technologically or habitually?

Writers often have habits developed over years. Expecting them to make wholesale changes to their process is neither practical nor necessary most times. Word can be used to produce quite lovely ebooks with a little bit of care.

exaltedwombat · 04-11-2019, 10:25 AM

I'm overjoyed when I get a source file from any word processor. But why send me an easy conversion job like that? I get the scans and the PDFs...

Hitch · 04-11-2019, 10:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Turtle91

"is able to produce epubs" is not a very valid argument in, and of, itself. IIRC Atlantis' coding is one of the worst not very good either....

You still need to be able to understand basic coding....

AMEN brother! Sheesh, folks, you can make an ePUB automagically from all sorts of allegedly magical tools, including OO, which is free, right? That doesn't mean it's good coding.

I'm always astounded by folks (not directed at Kiruhdu, btw) who pontificate about the awfulness of Word. "Oh, it produces crap HTML," "it fills files with cruft," etc. Good God, it's not unique to Word. All programs of all types that have added functionality, whether it's AWP or OO or LO, add cruft. It's hardly unique to, or the worst in, Word.

Hitch

exaltedwombat · 04-11-2019, 01:52 PM

Although the cruft in some EPUB conversions is irritating, I've given up worrying about 'good code', I'll settle for 'code that works'. So, unless it noticeably slows a reader down, the cruft can stay.

Hitch · 04-11-2019, 03:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by exaltedwombat

I'm overjoyed when I get a source file from any word processor. But why send me an easy conversion job like that? I get the scans and the PDFs...

Ask me how many files I've seen, in now 10 years, in which Styles or Headings were deployed, regardless of how those are named. Whether it's Word, Pages, OO, LO...ask me.

Not one in 100, quite LITERALLY. Why wouldn't that person send those files to us? To make a remotely-decent ebook file, at the very least, you need to have used styles and headings. If they don't know what those are, and have zero interest in learning, where would you expect them to send it?

Hitch

Turtle91 · 04-11-2019, 05:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by exaltedwombat

Although the cruft in some EPUB conversions is irritating, I've given up worrying about 'good code', I'll settle for 'code that works'. So, unless it noticeably slows a reader down, the cruft can stay.

I have had books - purchased from authors on Amazon who I consider better than average - that had books so full of cruft that my iphone choked on them.

I spent a LONG time cleaning out the cruft on one of those...obviously created using one of those word processors that is supposed to "just make it work" ... and I ran out of patience. Now, I'm the kind of guy that will spend hours trying to figure out the right regex for something that I could have manually accomplished in a couple of minutes... so for me to give up on that is saying quite a bit.

That author obviously had no clue what his code looked like...as long as it looked ok in his program he was happy... but the result was that I can't/won't buy any other books from him because it was so bad. Imagine the customers out there that don't have the html/css experience of those on MR - they would either never buy from that author again, leave a bad rating, report the deficiencies to Amazon, or maybe all the above! If I was an author, that would be a risk I'd rather not take. Much easier to have basic understanding of what is needed to make a good product...that is what professionals are supposed to do.

Hitch · 04-11-2019, 05:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Turtle91

I have had books - purchased from authors on Amazon who I consider better than average - that had books so full of cruft that my iphone choked on them.

I spent a LONG time cleaning out the cruft on one of those...obviously created using one of those word processors that is supposed to "just make it work" ... and I ran out of patience. Now, I'm the kind of guy that will spend hours trying to figure out the right regex for something that I could have manually accomplished in a couple of minutes... so for me to give up on that is saying quite a bit.

That author obviously had no clue what his code looked like...as long as it looked ok in his program he was happy... but the result was that I can't/won't buy any other books from him because it was so bad. Imagine the customers out there that don't have the html/css experience of those on MR - they would either never buy from that author again, leave a bad rating, report the deficiencies to Amazon, or maybe all the above! If I was an author, that would be a risk I'd rather not take. Much easier to have basic understanding of what is needed to make a good product...that is what professionals are supposed to do.

Turtle:

Brother, you know that I'm 100% on your side, but do you think that regular people--not us--really notice that? Or do you mean that it was unmissable, even for a pedestrian civilian?

Hitch

exaltedwombat · 04-11-2019, 06:12 PM

Well yes, if you notice the slow-down BEFORE looking at the code, that's a good reason to go cruft-hunting.

DNSB · 04-11-2019, 08:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by exaltedwombat

I'm overjoyed when I get a source file from any word processor. But why send me an easy conversion job like that? I get the scans and the PDFs...

Or the person who sends you a pdf generated from a Word file to make it easier for you since it is already in an ebook format.

Kiruhdu · 04-11-2019, 08:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Turtle91

"is able to produce epubs" is not a very valid argument in, and of, itself. IIRC Atlantis' coding is one of the worst not very good either....

You still need to be able to understand basic coding....

May I ask when you have tried this the last time?

Whenever I get a book with *.rtl, *.doc or *.docx I use AWP to produce an epub and for my understanding the code it produce is easy but fine...
Sometimes it needs a minimal overwork in Sigil; and on my reding-devices it get handled with no problems.
Could you please a bit more specific on 'Atlantis' coding is one of the worst not very good either...'?

BetterRed · 04-11-2019, 08:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DNSB

Or the person who sends you a pdf generated from a Word file to make it easier for you since it is already in an ebook format.

If the PDF was created from within Word (Save As), and you open it in Word you'll probably get something that is very close what was saved - i.e. the manuscript.

Caveat: i think that'll only be true for Word 2013 or later.

BR

DNSB · 04-11-2019, 08:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BetterRed

If the PDF was created from within Word (Save As), and you open it in Word you'll probably get something that is very close what was saved - i.e. the manuscript.

Caveat: i think that'll only be true for Word 2013 or later.

The file was created using the CutePDF print to pdf utility according to the embedded information. Acrobat did a pretty decent job of converting it back to a Word document but still artifacts that had to be manually cleaned up.

Kiruhdu · 04-11-2019, 08:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

Those who have used for it decades and have no need or desire to retool technologically or habitually?

Writers often have habits developed over years. Expecting them to make wholesale changes to their process is neither practical nor necessary most times. Word can be used to produce quite lovely ebooks with a little bit of care.

Yeah, I know this. I have Word used since DOS-times and after that what was called 'WinWord' at these times - untill the Version of 2003 - which was the last Version which has deserved the title 'Word Prozessor' in my eyes. Since then they have added a lot of gimmicks at the expense of functionality...
So I have changed my software - regardless of my personal habits - and in the long run, i don't regret this.

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04-11-2019, 09:12 AM	#17
Turtle91 A Hairy Wizard Posts: 3,397 Karma: 20212733 Join Date: Dec 2012 Location: Charleston, SC today Device: iPhone 15/11/X/6/iPad 1,2,Air & Air Pro/Surface Pro/Kindle PW & Fire	"is able to produce epubs" is not a very valid argument in, and of, itself. IIRC Atlantis' coding is one of the worst not very good either.... You still need to be able to understand basic coding....

04-11-2019, 10:25 AM	#19
exaltedwombat Guru Posts: 878 Karma: 2457540 Join Date: Nov 2011 Device: none	I'm overjoyed when I get a source file from any word processor. But why send me an easy conversion job like that? I get the scans and the PDFs...

04-11-2019, 01:52 PM	#21
exaltedwombat Guru Posts: 878 Karma: 2457540 Join Date: Nov 2011 Device: none	Although the cruft in some EPUB conversions is irritating, I've given up worrying about 'good code', I'll settle for 'code that works'. So, unless it noticeably slows a reader down, the cruft can stay.

04-11-2019, 06:12 PM	#25
exaltedwombat Guru Posts: 878 Karma: 2457540 Join Date: Nov 2011 Device: none	Well yes, if you notice the slow-down BEFORE looking at the code, that's a good reason to go cruft-hunting.