Do some publishers have any idea?

[darryl]

Incidentally, I doubt that lending a Kindle device to a friend even breaches copyright, though it may well breach Amazon's terms. No copying is involved. Nor is it lending or communicating the work to the public as I understand is required by UK Copyright Law.

[latepaul]

Originally Posted by HarryT

What I specifically regard as unethical is the unauthorised sharing of copyrighted material (ie piracy).

But piracy is not "unauthorised sharing of copyrighted material" it's "unauthorised copying of copyrighted material". That's why the analogy with paper books is apt - I receive no explicit authorisation from the copyright owner to share the material but I can do so legally so long as I do so by lending the book itself not heading to the photocopier.

So ethically I can't see a problem.

Legally there are two potential problems:

a) Amazon has TOS (part of which you quote) - but that's not a matter of copyright law, that's (putatively) a contract between the user and Amazon. Such click-through contracts are open to question as to whether they're enforceable and open to interpretation by courts even if they are.

b) At a very low level technically there is copying going on when you use an ereader. The text gets copied from storage to memory, and from one memory location to another. I'm extremely sceptical than one could build a copyright infringement case on it.

Would you consider it ethical for me to lend you my (Windows) laptop? By your logic I'm "sharing" the software which is copyrighted. But if you only use the laptop not copy the software you're ethically OK surely?

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by pdurrant

Personal use.

I asked about this exact point, and received the answer that it was permissible under the licence to share with friends as family, so long as that was by a device registered to my Amazon account.

There's clearly a whole continuum of different actions we could be talking about here. Lending my friend Joe a Kindle with a single book on it for a few days isn't the same thing as giving Joe a Kindle for his permanent use with access to my entire ebook library, and that in turn isn't the same as giving Kindles to half a dozen different friends or relatives.

Joe could quite legitimately have access to my ebook library through the "Amazon Household" system, which allows two adults and up to four children to access each other's content. If you're going considerably beyond the limits of what "Amazon Household" permits, it's difficult to see how this can be reconciled with the idea that content is licensed for personal use only.

[pdurrant]

Originally Posted by HarryT

There's clearly a whole continuum of different actions we could be talking about here. Lending my friend Joe a Kindle with a single book on it for a few days isn't the same thing as giving Joe a Kindle for his permanent use with access to my entire ebook library, and that in turn isn't the same as giving Kindles to half a dozen different friends or relatives.

I asked Amazon about this most explicitly back in 2012:

Thank you for your response to my question, but it seems to be a technical rather than legal answer to my question. Obviously no-one is able read my books (the DRMed ones, anyway) unless they have access to a device registered to my account.

But I am asking about the licence terms, and what they allow me to do, not the technical limitations imposed by the DRM system.

May I let my spouse read ebooks that I have bought (on a device registered to my Kindle Account)?
May I let my children read ebooks that I have bought (on a device registered to my Kindle Account)?
May I let a close friend read ebooks that I have bought (on a device registered to my Kindle Account)?

I'm sorry to go on about this, but I do want to understand how many copies of an ebook you expect a household to buy if everyone in the household wants to read it. Your licence terms seem to imply that a copy needs to be bought for everyone who wants to read the ebook.

To which they gave this reply:

I am sorry about the confusion caused by my colleagues reply to your query.

In this case, I can confirm that in most cases, Paid Books have on average 6 Licenses and Free books have on average 99 Licenses.

Publishers choose whether they apply digital rights management software (DRM) to their content. There is no limit on the number of times a title can be downloaded to a registered Kindle device or Kindle-compatible device running a Kindle application, but there may be limits on the number of Kindle devices and applications (usually 6) that can simultaneously use a single book. If the limit is less than six Kindles devices or applications for a specific title, you'll see the message "Simultaneous Device usage: Up to X simultaneous devices, per publisher limits" on the website detail page.

This means that your Spouse's, Children's and even your friend's Kindle can be registered to your account and can download and read your books from you Archived items. Provided they do not exceed the limit of licenses.

Therefore, you can buy one copy of a book and have it available to be read on up to six devices (if it is a paid book) and up to 99 devices if it is a free book.

In terms of use, you have purchase a copy of a book with us, and it is your copy. You may authorize any one you wish to read it, but that person's device must be registered to your account to do so.

This wasn't a response from first-line technical support. This was a considered reply from Amazon.

Amazon have licensing terms. I asked them about those terms, and they told me how they interpreted them. "You may authorize any one you wish to read it, but that person's device must be registered to your account to do so." That's good enough for me.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by pdurrant

Amazon have licensing terms. I asked them about those terms, and they told me how they interpreted them. "You may authorize any one you wish to read it, but that person's device must be registered to your account to do so." That's good enough for me.

Interesting. It's difficult to reconcile that reply with the clearly stated "... solely for your personal use" clause of the licence agreement.

Thanks for that.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by latepaul

Would you consider it ethical for me to lend you my (Windows) laptop? By your logic I'm "sharing" the software which is copyrighted. But if you only use the laptop not copy the software you're ethically OK surely?

I'd consider that absolutely fine, because only one of us would be using it at a time. What wouldn't be fine would be for you to buy a new laptop, install all your software on it, and then give me your old laptop which had the same software on it, because then two of us would be using software that was only licensed for one person.

[Timboli]

Here's something some of you might find interesting or illuminating.
Basically a snapshot of my Reading Record.
Pretty organized aren't I ... not your regular Joe. LOL

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by Timboli

Here's something some of you might find interesting or illuminating.
Basically a snapshot of my Reading Record.
Pretty organized aren't I ... not your regular Joe. LOL

An awful lot of us keep similar records in the 2019 Annual Reading Challenge List Thread, so no, you're not particular unusual (for an MR member) in keeping reading records.

[Timboli]

I also think it could be quite interesting, to attempt to determine the value of a story.
The value being quite subjective of course, certainly regarding all the interested parties, but I think a valuable exercise, never-the-less.

The value of course, also comes in different forms.

To start off, let's look at the value to the Author.
There is the value inherent in the joy of creating something, which will encompass the hard work (writing and possibly research), the intuition and the assistance from others, and possibly sacrifices.
Then there is the recompense or expectancy of such.
All that is quite variable, and different for a new author compared to an established one with a following, and a life built around expected earnings.
So hard to quantify for them, and nothing is ever hugely guaranteed in that regard or for long.

Let's look next at the Publisher.
To them it is about product, getting a good return, and encouraging more of such. Depending on the publisher there may be an element of altruism, and looking beyond the immediate. That last may just be the industry and or something deemed good or worthy for mankind or perhaps a personal bias.
The value for them on one level is simple, costs need to be covered and a profit made, but can also be complicated with any altruism or other desires.
So once again, maybe hard to quantify.

There are no doubt other parties involved, but I am just going to cover the main ones myself, so the last one is the Customer or consumer ... the value to them.
Now this is incredibly subjective, and is based on a whole swag of conditional elements, including personality.
It is perhaps best if I just make a numbered list.
1. Expected value to pay for a book.
2. Financial situation. Clearly this will have a bigger impact on some than others.
3. What you are prepared to pay. This of course will vary depending on liking for the author (if any) and importance of a story (i.e. part of a series, etc) or perhaps just expectation based on referral.
4. Competition. Which could be another book or books, especially where price is a consideration. It can also be all sorts of things ... anything else you might need or want to spend money on, whether that be other entertainment or some kind of luxury or not a luxury at all but a necessity to a varying degree.
5. Willingness to make a sacrifice ... go without something.
6. Something based on your health or physical situation.
I am sure there are others and many are interrelated of course.

As can be seen, it is likely to be a very complex beast if you need to count your pennies.
Of course, affluent people have the benefit of their whims, and ethical conscience judgments, all of which often comes down to personality.
And then regardless of financial situation, some are just reckless ... they want they get.

Lots of stuff to think about, and I am sure quite overwhelming really. So for most of us, we prefer to simplify.

What can I afford, will I get enough value for that, or should I buy something else ... or just wait and hope for a future improvement? And perhaps we will do a comparative judgment.

Take a movie for instance, a kind of dumbed down book.
Less time to consume, usually easier on the mind as a lot of stuff is visualized for you. Instant entertainment, with relatively little waiting for the drama and or action. Quick and easy to watch again.

A movie can be up to double the price of a book, but generally less than that, often by a good margin.

At the end of the day, movie or book are a story. For those who love reading, who like all the detail, or like to do their own visualization, a book is usually far more rewarding. A movie has some benefits though, chief of which is the possibility of a shared experience.

So in many ways, a book and a movie are direct competitors ... even when different subject matter.

Many people opt for a movie over a book, even when they are a book lover, just purely because it takes less time and effort to consume, and can be instantly shared with friends and or loved ones ... especially if one etc of those is never going to read the book version anyway.

The Lord Of The Rings is an obvious example. Many who have never been able to start or complete the book, have watched the movie. I wouldn't like to speculate how many more have watched the movie and not read the book, but I imagine it is a lot more.

So inevitably for some of us, we consider the costs involved in providing a book, and the costs involved in providing a movie. And frankly there is usually a huge disparity or difference.

In financial terms, we are getting a lot more bang for our buck when buying a movie.

So honestly, how can you make a value judgment between the two mediums? It is going to be different depending on who you are, and perhaps how you may be feeling at any point in time, etc.

I've really only touched the surface of all this ... and it's just my understanding at this point in time ... without expanding too much. I am sure many of you have your own understanding and views to share. Please do.

P.S. On a personal note, a movie of a book, especially one like the Lord Of The Rings, spoils or mars it, certainly for me. It makes many things concrete that I feel are better left to our own mind. This is especially so when there is a conflict, but not only. I very much like the idea, that the images and notions are flexible in your mind. So much so, that on subsequent readings, perhaps many years apart, you can interpret differently. That doesn't really happen with a movie in quite the same way.

[Timboli]

Originally Posted by HarryT

An awful lot of us keep similar records in the 2019 Annual Reading Challenge List Thread, so no, you're not particular unusual (for an MR member) in keeping reading records.

Really ...... maybe I belong here then ... ha ha ha.

Thanks for letting me know. I have never come across anyone who keeps records anything like mine.

P.S. That picture (and XLS file) links up with another I posted earlier in this topic.

[darryl]

Originally Posted by Timboli

In case some, perhaps most, haven't realized, I am a Goodist that believes in and promotes Goodism.

Goodist or Goodism seems to have no dictionary definition, but is described in terms similar to the below by websites such as THIS

Goodists are people who put the needs and desires of others before their own. They have a hard time saying, "No!" Do they do say yes to help others and be good or do they do it because of their fear of not being loved? Or do they want to be good due to higher reasons, such as spiritual reasons, out of love for others, a value-driven life, and so on?

I must say that I see no such qualities evident in your posts. I would have thought narcissist was closer. From Wikipedia:

Narcissism is the pursuit of gratification from vanity or egotistic admiration of one's idealised self image and attributes.

[latepaul]

Originally Posted by HarryT

I'd consider that absolutely fine, because only one of us would be using it at a time. What wouldn't be fine would be for you to buy a new laptop, install all your software on it, and then give me your old laptop which had the same software on it, because then two of us would be using software that was only licensed for one person.

Well chances are if I bought a new laptop it would come with a licensed copy of Windows pre-installed so I wouldn't need to copy that. But let's say I install Office on it. Specifically Office 365 the license for which allows me to install on 5 devices. Now if I lend out my old laptop we can both use Office at the same time and it's covered by the license.

Given that Amazon allows me to put my ebooks on several different devices at once, surely the same logic applies there. At least ethically if not in the fine details of the legalese?

I also note that you talk about software (and ebooks) by licensed for/to a person, and I agree that it's a person who needs the license in order to make copies of copyrighted material, in practice though the license follows the device, and at least in the computer case the copyright owner wants it that way.

And in the ebook case Amazon have specifically made it explicit that I can have multiple copies on multiple devices. So I'd argue they want it that way too. Whether they intend that to be used for lending is another matter and open to interpretation (in the courts if it ever came to it).

Put it this way, I think Amazon's TOS are an attempt to make sure we honour copyright and are putting restrictions on "use" as a way to do that. Morally I'm happy to ignore the letter of these use restrictions whilst honouring the spirit of copyright.

[Sirtel]

Originally Posted by Timboli

Here's something some of you might find interesting or illuminating.
Basically a snapshot of my Reading Record.
Pretty organized aren't I ... not your regular Joe. LOL

I used to keep such records, when I read paper books. Now that my reading material is 90% digital and all my ebooks are in Calibre anyway, I don't bother with keeping several databases. I just mark the book as read in Calibre and give it a rating. When exactly I read it isn't particularly important for me.

[shalym]

Originally Posted by pdurrant

I asked Amazon about this most explicitly back in 2012:

To which they gave this reply:

This wasn't a response from first-line technical support. This was a considered reply from Amazon.

Amazon have licensing terms. I asked them about those terms, and they told me how they interpreted them. "You may authorize any one you wish to read it, but that person's device must be registered to your account to do so." That's good enough for me.

This is exactly what I was talking about in my post, Harry. Amazon allows it, so by extension, the publishers do as well. If the granter of the license allows it, how in the world can it be unethical?

Shari

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by shalym

This is exactly what I was talking about in my post, Harry. Amazon allows it, so by extension, the publishers do as well. If the granter of the license allows it, how in the world can it be unethical?

Shari

Because I don't personally consider it to lie within the spirit of buying books for personal use. You do what you feel to be right, obviously. I'm just telling you how I feel about it!