Do some publishers have any idea? - Page 13

Apache · 04-01-2019, 07:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HarryT

Need to change it? Why do they need to? The big publishers are commercially successful. Why change a successful business model?

Why shouldn't they change it? B&N Changed theirs and look what it did for them.

Apache

pwalker8 · 04-01-2019, 07:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HarryT

Need to change it? Why do they need to? The big publishers are commercially successful. Why change a successful business model?

Because books are meant to be free?

What's interesting is that the business model for authors and publishers has changed quite a bit over my life time for various reasons. When I first started reading, many authors got much of their money from magazine sales and book sales were kind of secondary. At one time, libraries were one of the biggest buyers of non best seller books. Neither is really the case anymore.

One of the more interesting changes we are seeing right now is the rise of the audio books. You also have the rise of the indie movement which has a totally different business model than the traditional publishers.

Jerry Pournelle, back when Baen Books was just starting their ebooks and monthly bundles, talked a bit about his current business model in various columns. He was slowing down a bit by that time, but talked about how he looked at his back list as his 401K, i.e. his more popular books were republished on a regular basis and brought in an expected amount of money as new fans discovered his books and old fans replaced tattered or lost copies. With ebooks, authors were very concerned about that business model changing.

It would be very interesting to see how much that old business model has changed for authors and what their ongoing money streams are with regards to paper sales, ebook sales and audio sales. Scalzi broke it out for his first year sales for Redshirts and Lockout, but I don't think he's repeated that. I had expected that authors would have a much longer tail in sales (i.e. monthly sales of older books) with ongoing sales a Amazon, plus ebooks and audiobooks. It would be very interesting to see if that expectation was accurate.

HarryT · 04-01-2019, 08:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pwalker8

... talked about how he looked at his back list as his 401K ...

I'm afraid you'll have to explain that

. What the heck is a "401K"?

Frenzie · 04-01-2019, 08:55 AM

It's American for pension. (Or rather, it's the paragraph or section or whatever of the American tax code that regulates pensions.)

HarryT · 04-01-2019, 08:57 AM

Thanks

.

maximus83 · 04-01-2019, 10:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frenzie

It's American for pension.

Except in America--you fund it yourself.

Frenzie · 04-01-2019, 10:40 AM

That's different in the UK?

maximus83 · 04-01-2019, 10:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frenzie

That's different in the UK?

No idea? I was referring to the traditional term 'pension', which here at least, tends to mean it is funded by your employer. Example: my school teacher neighbor gets a pension provided by the public schools. I have a 401K funded by myself (with small employer contribution). Just a nit about words, sorry.

Frenzie · 04-01-2019, 10:59 AM

I see, thanks. I suppose in a way that's exactly the opposite of how it is in the Netherlands. Your pension is that which you funded yourself. The AOW (Common Elderdom Law) could be called a state pension (it's not much, ftr), but you probably wouldn't call it a pension because it's the AOW.

(An employer pension sounds like an odd idea.

I hope it works by the employer putting stuff into some "401k" equivalent so it doesn't depend on whether they go bankrupt in the future.)

j.p.s · 04-01-2019, 11:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frenzie

(An employer pension sounds like an odd idea.

I hope it works by the employer putting stuff into some "401k" equivalent so it doesn't depend on whether they go bankrupt in the future.)

There have been plenty of companies going bankrupt and destroying pensions in the process, but tragic as those were, they pale in comparison to what is happening with pensions from some city governments and even some states. There have also been some scandals in union run pension funds. If there isn't a book on the history of pensions in the US, there should be.

GlennD · 04-01-2019, 12:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pwalker8

Because books are meant to be free?

What's interesting is that the business model for authors and publishers has changed quite a bit over my life time for various reasons. When I first started reading, many authors got much of their money from magazine sales and book sales were kind of secondary. At one time, libraries were one of the biggest buyers of non best seller books. Neither is really the case anymore.

One of the more interesting changes we are seeing right now is the rise of the audio books. You also have the rise of the indie movement which has a totally different business model than the traditional publishers.

Jerry Pournelle, back when Baen Books was just starting their ebooks and monthly bundles, talked a bit about his current business model in various columns. He was slowing down a bit by that time, but talked about how he looked at his back list as his 401K, i.e. his more popular books were republished on a regular basis and brought in an expected amount of money as new fans discovered his books and old fans replaced tattered or lost copies. With ebooks, authors were very concerned about that business model changing.

It would be very interesting to see how much that old business model has changed for authors and what their ongoing money streams are with regards to paper sales, ebook sales and audio sales. Scalzi broke it out for his first year sales for Redshirts and Lockout, but I don't think he's repeated that. I had expected that authors would have a much longer tail in sales (i.e. monthly sales of older books) with ongoing sales a Amazon, plus ebooks and audiobooks. It would be very interesting to see if that expectation was accurate.

I think ebooks bring a totally different model - primarily because a book never needs to go 'out of print' in the first place. Authors can have their entire back catalog available and, even better, available in the same place readers buy their other books. Back in the day if you found an author that you liked you had to hope that your local Borders (or whatever) carried their other books. Usually they had parts of series and always the wrong ones.

With ebooks you can go back to Amazon and find all their other work.

Of course there will no longer be beat up copies to replace....but there also isn't a competing used book market. I'm curious what the long term effect on authors' "401k" will be.

DuckieTigger · 04-01-2019, 12:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Timboli

No need, I have ample books to read, way past my life expectancy.
I can wait for the market to do the right thing or ignore eventually.

Why don't you then instead of complaining? Your solution to your problem is so obvious that nobody else dared mention it. Simply stop buying books altogether right now. Problem solved, no more worries about unfair book prices. Consider buying your next book after reading what you got.

darryl · 04-01-2019, 11:46 PM

Putting it very simply, the optimal pricing point for an e-book is not going to be the same as that for a print book. Selling only one or the other, or selling one only ancillary to the other, makes pricing very easy. However, the Big 5 are selling both print books and e-books. Why on earth would anyone expect them to price as if they were selling e-books alone. There is no significant price competition at the retail level for print book sales. The Big 5 simply do not compete with each other on price in this market. Nor do they compete with each other on retail prices for e-books. At one stage they were ignoring competition from Indie e-books and setting prices as if there was no such competition. Their current model seems to be to price newly released or re-released e-books at a high price. By doing so they avoid giving print buyers any incentive to switch to e-books, and preserve their traditional pricing methods for print books. At this stage they pick up the available revenue from those prepared to pay top price, whether for a print book or an e-book. Later, just as they have always done with print books, they will progressively pick up available revenue at lower price points. As mentioned in various posts in this thread, we are now seeing some Big 5 backlist e-book titles being sold at prices competitive with the higher end of the Indie market. I'm not sure how prevalent this has become just yet, but it may well be part of the Big 5 experimenting with its pricing and how to compete with Indies. The model seems to make a great deal of sense as it picks up available revenue at the various main price points.

Most Indie authors seem to set a price and leave the book at that price. Some do of course experiment, as they should. But from what I can see most Indie authors do not consistently adopt the practice of charging more for a book when it is first released. Yet there is a market at a higher price, at least for the better known Indie authors. Pre-release Baen does very well selling e-arcs at significantly higher prices to those who simply can't wait. The Big 5 have always been very good at extracting premium prices for their new releases. They seem to be bringing this model to their e-books, only competing with Indies once the premium has been extracted from those prepared to pay it.

gmw · 04-02-2019, 01:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by darryl

[..] Most Indie authors seem to set a price and leave the book at that price. Some do of course experiment, as they should. But from what I can see most Indie authors do not consistently adopt the practice of charging more for a book when it is first released. Yet there is a market at a higher price, at least for the better known Indie authors. Pre-release Baen does very well selling e-arcs at significantly higher prices to those who simply can't wait. The Big 5 have always been very good at extracting premium prices for their new releases. They seem to be bringing this model to their e-books, only competing with Indies once the premium has been extracted from those prepared to pay it.

As you say, established independent authors may be able to put a premium price on new releases, but most new or lesser known generally go the other way (whether for better or worse can be really hard to say).

One thing I have observed lately (to the detriment of my wallet) is that even the big publishers (or is it the book sellers themselves?) are sometimes putting the most recent book on special on or before a brand new release. For example Robert Goddard recently released One False Move, well the 2018 released Panic Room was on sale at Kobo Aust until just a day or two ago. I've seen similar situations with a number of authors recently.

darryl · 04-02-2019, 01:48 AM

@gmw. I think the major publishers are finally experimenting with pricing, and I think we may well see a few different practices being tried. I hadn't noticed this particular experiment but it is certainly worth trying.

As I have posted previously, my view is that the Big 5 tried but failed to differentiate their books sufficiently from Indies. In the aftermath of agency and their newfound control of e-book pricing for a time they simply weren't interested in competing with Indies at all nor in setting prices to optimise their overall return across both e-books and print books. This has now changed and it seems to me that they are experimenting with prices. If they can in fact price their new release e-books at a premium to pick up those prepared to pay it and then later reduce the price and pick up those who want the book but only at a lower price then they certainly win. The only way they lose is if they lose substantial sales to piracy of they lose customers who are no longer interested in the book when the price is reduced. Personally I doubt either is a significant risk. Like you, I frequently suffer pain in my hip pocket when I see a book I want at a reasonable price. When I see it at $5.99 or $6.99 if I want it I doubt the fact that I would not pay $13.99 or $14.99 12 months ago is going to stop me purchasing it now.

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04-01-2019, 08:55 AM	#184
Frenzie Wizard Posts: 1,763 Karma: 731681 Join Date: Oct 2014 Location: Antwerp Device: Kobo Aura H2O	It's American for pension. (Or rather, it's the paragraph or section or whatever of the American tax code that regulates pensions.)

04-01-2019, 08:57 AM	#185
HarryT eBook Enthusiast Posts: 85,557 Karma: 93980341 Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: UK Device: Kindle Oasis 2, iPad Pro 10.5", iPhone 6	Thanks .

04-01-2019, 10:40 AM	#187
Frenzie Wizard Posts: 1,763 Karma: 731681 Join Date: Oct 2014 Location: Antwerp Device: Kobo Aura H2O	That's different in the UK?

04-01-2019, 10:59 AM	#189
Frenzie Wizard Posts: 1,763 Karma: 731681 Join Date: Oct 2014 Location: Antwerp Device: Kobo Aura H2O	I see, thanks. I suppose in a way that's exactly the opposite of how it is in the Netherlands. Your pension is that which you funded yourself. The AOW (Common Elderdom Law) could be called a state pension (it's not much, ftr), but you probably wouldn't call it a pension because it's the AOW. (An employer pension sounds like an odd idea. I hope it works by the employer putting stuff into some "401k" equivalent so it doesn't depend on whether they go bankrupt in the future.)

04-01-2019, 11:46 PM	#193
darryl Wizard Posts: 3,108 Karma: 60231510 Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: Australia Device: Kobo Aura H2O, Kindle Oasis, Huwei Ascend Mate 7	Putting it very simply, the optimal pricing point for an e-book is not going to be the same as that for a print book. Selling only one or the other, or selling one only ancillary to the other, makes pricing very easy. However, the Big 5 are selling both print books and e-books. Why on earth would anyone expect them to price as if they were selling e-books alone. There is no significant price competition at the retail level for print book sales. The Big 5 simply do not compete with each other on price in this market. Nor do they compete with each other on retail prices for e-books. At one stage they were ignoring competition from Indie e-books and setting prices as if there was no such competition. Their current model seems to be to price newly released or re-released e-books at a high price. By doing so they avoid giving print buyers any incentive to switch to e-books, and preserve their traditional pricing methods for print books. At this stage they pick up the available revenue from those prepared to pay top price, whether for a print book or an e-book. Later, just as they have always done with print books, they will progressively pick up available revenue at lower price points. As mentioned in various posts in this thread, we are now seeing some Big 5 backlist e-book titles being sold at prices competitive with the higher end of the Indie market. I'm not sure how prevalent this has become just yet, but it may well be part of the Big 5 experimenting with its pricing and how to compete with Indies. The model seems to make a great deal of sense as it picks up available revenue at the various main price points. Most Indie authors seem to set a price and leave the book at that price. Some do of course experiment, as they should. But from what I can see most Indie authors do not consistently adopt the practice of charging more for a book when it is first released. Yet there is a market at a higher price, at least for the better known Indie authors. Pre-release Baen does very well selling e-arcs at significantly higher prices to those who simply can't wait. The Big 5 have always been very good at extracting premium prices for their new releases. They seem to be bringing this model to their e-books, only competing with Indies once the premium has been extracted from those prepared to pay it.

04-02-2019, 01:48 AM	#195
darryl Wizard Posts: 3,108 Karma: 60231510 Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: Australia Device: Kobo Aura H2O, Kindle Oasis, Huwei Ascend Mate 7	@gmw. I think the major publishers are finally experimenting with pricing, and I think we may well see a few different practices being tried. I hadn't noticed this particular experiment but it is certainly worth trying. As I have posted previously, my view is that the Big 5 tried but failed to differentiate their books sufficiently from Indies. In the aftermath of agency and their newfound control of e-book pricing for a time they simply weren't interested in competing with Indies at all nor in setting prices to optimise their overall return across both e-books and print books. This has now changed and it seems to me that they are experimenting with prices. If they can in fact price their new release e-books at a premium to pick up those prepared to pay it and then later reduce the price and pick up those who want the book but only at a lower price then they certainly win. The only way they lose is if they lose substantial sales to piracy of they lose customers who are no longer interested in the book when the price is reduced. Personally I doubt either is a significant risk. Like you, I frequently suffer pain in my hip pocket when I see a book I want at a reasonable price. When I see it at $5.99 or $6.99 if I want it I doubt the fact that I would not pay $13.99 or $14.99 12 months ago is going to stop me purchasing it now.

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