To sync or not to sync

[davidfor]

Originally Posted by JeanPierre

If you really expect your device to sync this frequently without your explicit invocation, what is the point of having a scheduled sync at all? It seems to me that the device would sync itself frequently enough just by happenstance as you go about your business using the device.

Because designs change. Because things like the likely availability of a WiFi network change. Because someone added something they thought would solve a problem (scheduled sync) and found out it didn't (need to have all the books on the device).

The scheduled sync was added first. Some time later, the sync-when-doing-stuff was added. Because of user demand. At that point, the scheduled sync became less important. But, removing it takes work. It still works and until a good reason comes along, there is no reason to remove it.

Same question to the others that follow this line of thinking.

I find it stretches credulity that a non-technical end user unfamiliar with the inner workings of the device to infer this the same way as you. If anything is atypical about this group of Kobo users, it's that some of you are significantly more experienced with the device than the typical user, and I think this is colouring your expectations of how the average user will interpret what's meant by the messages in the settings.

The average user will interpret disabling automatic sync to mean that all syncs henceforth will require manual invocation. End of story.

In order to infer otherwise, the user would need to be aware of other circumstances under which the device could justifiably be expected to sync without the user's invocation. I believe that many of you are too experienced and knowledgeable to recognise this.

And yes, a lot of people here have interpreted it that way. But, once you make a change, and it doesn't do what you thought it did, don't you have another look and see why? At that point you actually read everything on the screen and it might twig that it wasn't the option you were after. No matter how badly that option is worded, it does one thing. And all the information needed to know what it actually does is on that screen.

And am I allowed to be amused by the fact we are talking about an ereader. A device for reading books. A device that simple ownership and use implies people are literate. But, we are talking about the fact that these people don't actually read the stuff in front of them.

[JeanPierre]

Originally Posted by davidfor

And yes, a lot of people here have interpreted it that way. But, once you make a change, and it doesn't do what you thought it did, don't you have another look and see why? At that point you actually read everything on the screen and it might twig that it wasn't the option you were after. No matter how badly that option is worded, it does one thing. And all the information needed to know what it actually does is on that screen.

What is the option that we are after? We being those of us that wish to enable wifi to use, say, the browser but never have the device sync? Is there one?

The section in the options is entitled "BACKGROUND SYNC", has one checkbox, and yet there appears to be no way to completely disable background syncing when wifi is enabled.

Originally Posted by davidfor

And am I allowed to be amused by the fact we are talking about an ereader. A device for reading books. A device that simple ownership and use implies people are literate. But, we are talking about the fact that these people don't actually read the stuff in front of them.

What amuses you is your business, but I would have thought the tone of this was beneath you. I don't think it's a case of people not reading the messages in front of them. The longest description says "When daily Automatic Sync is on, your books, articles and software will remain up to date". It is not reasonable to infer from this that there will be other non-daily automatic syncs executed without user invocation.

Let us consider a hypothetical that uses the same language to see it if it will make it more clear. Let's say your phone has an option to automatically download free music into your music library released daily with a checkbox that says "Automatic free music download", and a message below it that says "When daily Automatic free music download is enabled, your music library will remain up to date with the latest free music available in the music store". Do you also think it's reasonable to infer from that language that you can expect unwanted music to be downloaded to your music library whenever your phone feels like it?

[davidfor]

Originally Posted by FrustratedReader

Because I have not bought one EVER from Kobo.
It's doing sync at home screen and in middle of reading.

Yes, it is supposed to do a sync when you go to the home screen. If it hasn't done one within the last 30 minutes. And as to a sync when you are in the middle of reading, that's just when you noticed it was happening. It probably started as you found the book and took a bit longer than usual.

I have no understanding why you are defending what is either a bug or stupidity on Kobo's part.

Please, and do it explicitly by quoting it, where I am defending Kobo. At all times I am only trying to explain how it actually works. Not how you I think it should work, which is all you seem to be concerned with.

But, and this is still not defending Kobo, it is not a bug. It is a deliberate design choice on Kobo's part. The reason I know that, is because I asked Kobo. I have no interest in going into whether it is a good or bad decision.

Almost anyone would assume that turning off sync turns it off. Selecting something like the shop, or suggestions, or "pocket" might be expected to connect.

An how many people would see that there is a sync when opening the Pocket article and wonder why that doesn't happen when their book list is opened? For someone who only got books from Kobo, that would make complete sense.

On almost every device in the last 30 years "sync" has a more specific meaning.

Please stop on so many posts defending either Kobo bugs or stupid design decisions. If sync when you are simply at home screen or reading an already open book is not a bug, but intended then that is really really worse behaviour by Kobo. Nothing else I have does it.

And please stop accusing me of doing something I am not doing. Again, point to where I have defended Kobo bugs. Or stupid design choices.

And stop deciding that the way that you would do it is the only way it can be done. That is what you are saying here and in just about all of your posts on this forum. You think it should work one way, therefore everyone should think it works that way.

Edit:
I've not seen it sync when I've opened the book list. Which makes sense as I have no Kobo books.

Whether you currently have purchased books on the device doesn't affect whether it tries to sync. It just affects how much data is synced. And if you haven't noticed it when you opened the book list, it is probably simply because it hasn't been 30 minutes since the last syncs. And you probably just weren't looking for it. But, the next time you open the book list, and sync doesn't start after a few seconds, tap the sync button and look at the time. 30 minutes minimum between syncs.


Last comment. If you think this is bad design, or even a bug, then do something about it. Complain to Kobo. Report it as a problem. They do listen. They do make changes based on user feedback. But, remember, they might not agree with you. Or, while you are suggesting something, someone else is probably suggesting something different.

[davidfor]

Originally Posted by JeanPierre

What is the option that we are after? We being those of us that wish to enable wifi to use, say, the browser but never have the device sync? Is there one?

The section in the options is entitled "BACKGROUND SYNC", has one checkbox, and yet there appears to be no way to completely disable background syncing when wifi is enabled.

You are completely right, there is no option to turn off all syncs. Should there be? Possibly. Does the existing sync related option need better explanation about what it is? Yes.

But, here is the thing. At the moment, there is only one option available about syncing. It does something specific. There is enough information on the settings dialog to work out what it does. Especially after someone tries it and it doesn't do what you (meaning you, JeanPierre in this case) thinks it does. And, no matter how hard everyone argues that this option should do something else, it doesn't do that thing. This is all that I have been arguing about.

What amuses you is your business, but I would have thought the tone of this was beneath you. I don't think it's a case of people not reading the messages in front of them. The longest description says "When daily Automatic Sync is on, your books, articles and software will remain up to date". It is not reasonable to infer from this that there will be other non-daily automatic syncs executed without user invocation.

Let us consider a hypothetical that uses the same language to see it if it will make it more clear. Let's say your phone has an option to automatically download free music into your music library released daily with a checkbox that says "Automatic free music download", and a message below it that says "When daily Automatic free music download is enabled, your music library will remain up to date with the latest free music available in the music store". Do you also think it's reasonable to infer from that language that you can expect unwanted music to be downloaded to your music library whenever your phone feels like it?

Please go back and read my posts. I have said at least a couple of times that I agree that the Sync settings page isn't completely clear. And I agree that if you quickly look at that page, it is understandable that someone might misinterpret it. But, the setting doesn't work that way. And it is unreasonable that once someone discovers that something doesn't work they way they first thought, that they don't investigate what is going on. And, as bad as the page might be, there is enough information on to work out what does if you paid any attention to what actually happened.

And for you example, probably not. But, that isn't the only thing on the screen. The timing of the syncs is there. And you are stretching the analogy. Without further explanation, that "free music" is downloading random free music. The sync on the devices is downloading things that I explicitly selected (paid for, chose free, added preview, borrowed from library). I would not expect the two downloads to work exactly the same. And to be honest, if you offer me "free" anything, I look for the catch.

[JeanPierre]

Originally Posted by davidfor

There is enough information on the settings dialog to work out what it does. Especially after someone tries it and it doesn't do what you (meaning you, JeanPierre in this case) thinks it does. And, no matter how hard everyone argues that this option should do something else, it doesn't do that thing. This is all that I have been arguing about.

Okay, if you are just saying that I should be able to work out that the option doesn't do what I expected, based on my own experience of having the option disabled and noticing that when I connect to wifi a sync I haven't prompted has been triggered, then we agree. I was able to work out that the option doesn't what I expected after it did that, which I did not expect. I was under the impression you were going a step further and saying that the language used in the settings is sufficient to infer this behaviour before having observed the device performing unexpected background syncs.

Originally Posted by davidfor

Please go back and read my posts. I have said at least a couple of times that I agree that the Sync settings page isn't completely clear. And I agree that if you quickly look at that page, it is understandable that someone might misinterpret it. But, the setting doesn't work that way. And it is unreasonable that once someone discovers that something doesn't work they way they first thought, that they don't investigate what is going on. And, as bad as the page might be, there is enough information on to work out what does if you paid any attention to what actually happened.

Agreed.

Originally Posted by davidfor

And for you example, probably not. But, that isn't the only thing on the screen. The timing of the syncs is there. And you are stretching the analogy. Without further explanation, that "free music" is downloading random free music. The sync on the devices is downloading things that I explicitly selected (paid for, chose free, added preview, borrowed from library). I would not expect the two downloads to work exactly the same. And to be honest, if you offer me "free" anything, I look for the catch.

Admittedly the analogy isn't perfect, and I am imposing my own motivation to not have the data contained my the Event table of my database transmitted to Kobo without my explicit consent. Hence the analogy attempting to make the issue about consent.

I thank you for the information you provided that details how the background syncing behaviour came about following user feedback, and that the background sync settings page predates that. I also appreciate that you're very pragmatic, knowledgeable and helpful when you post here, and want to solve problems, while some of us just want to vent and point problems out That was all I wanted to do in this case: point out something I think is a problem, and now that I have, I will leave it at that

[tumbi]

Gee, this thread is getting a bit heated. And I have to remind myself what this thread is about!

So, getting back to the theme of this thread, which is Kobo Firmware 4.12.12111, might I suggest a solution to the sync issue would be to develop a patch for an option to disable ALL syncing? It seems those who are unhappy with things related to syncing, would simply like to switch off ALL syncing, whether automatic, manual, or anything else.

It doesn’t matter whether it is a Kobo bug or a Kobo feature, a patch would allow you to do your own thing, if that is what you want. End of argument.

[lkmiller]

Originally Posted by JeanPierre

If you really expect your device to sync this frequently without your explicit invocation, what is the point of having a scheduled sync at all? It seems to me that the device would sync itself frequently enough just by happenstance as you go about your business using the device.

Same question to the others that follow this line of thinking.

I consider turning on wifi an "explicit invocation" for any device to keep itself up-to-date. To me, that's the main reason for an ereader to have wifi. Being able to check Google or Wikipedia is a side benefit.

The point of scheduling a complete sync once every 24 hours is in case I didn't wake it up at all or maybe I only looked at Pocket articles that day (extremely rare for me, but it might have happened once or twice!)

Originally Posted by JeanPierre

I find it stretches credulity that a non-technical end user unfamiliar with the inner workings of the device to infer this the same way as you. If anything is atypical about this group of Kobo users, it's that some of you are significantly more experienced with the device than the typical user, and I think this is colouring your expectations of how the average user will interpret what's meant by the messages in the settings.

The average user will interpret disabling automatic sync to mean that all syncs henceforth will require manual invocation. End of story.

In order to infer otherwise, the user would need to be aware of other circumstances under which the device could justifiably be expected to sync without the user's invocation. I believe that many of you are too experienced and knowledgeable to recognise this.

In these days of everything getting connected to the internet, I'm surprised to hear that people expect anything but turning off wifi to stop *all* syncing. Looking at the Kobo's setting page, I can now sorta see how it could be misinterpreted. But I'm still surprised.

One thing that baffles me about Kindles is that they don't sync the time. Why would anything with a clock and an internet connection not keep itself on local time? Twice a year I pick up my Kindle and wonder for a moment why it's an hour off. It's the only wifi enabled thing I own that I have to manually "Spring forward" and "Fall back." And at this point, almost the only thing period.

[DNSB]

Originally Posted by JeanPierre

If you really expect your device to sync this frequently without your explicit invocation, what is the point of having a scheduled sync at all? It seems to me that the device would sync itself frequently enough just by happenstance as you go about your business using the device.

For me, the scheduled sync is not needed. OTOH, I know several people who use their ereaders anywhen from on the weekend to maybe once or twice a month. For them, the scheduled sync would help to keep them up to date. I did not use the word bibliophagist in my personalisation lightly so for me, I don't need the scheduled sync task.

As has been said before, the average ereader user is not the average Mobileread member. If nothing else, from what I've read, quite a few Mobileread members have TBR piles into the triple digits compared to the 12 ebooks read per year by the "average American".

Originally Posted by JeanPierre

I find it stretches credulity that a non-technical end user unfamiliar with the inner workings of the device to infer this the same way as you. If anything is atypical about this group of Kobo users, it's that some of you are significantly more experienced with the device than the typical user, and I think this is colouring your expectations of how the average user will interpret what's meant by the messages in the settings.

The average user will interpret disabling automatic sync to mean that all syncs henceforth will require manual invocation. End of story.

In order to infer otherwise, the user would need to be aware of other circumstances under which the device could justifiably be expected to sync without the user's invocation. I believe that many of you are too experienced and knowledgeable to recognise this.

Minor disagreement. The average user is never going notice that setting much less be confused about what it means. I agree the wording could be changed to make it clearer that this is changing whether a daily sync will be scheduled but as I said, darn few users are ever going to find the setting or care what it does.

[DNSB]

Originally Posted by JeanPierre

Let us consider a hypothetical that uses the same language to see it if it will make it more clear. Let's say your phone has an option to automatically download free music into your music library released daily with a checkbox that says "Automatic free music download", and a message below it that says "When daily Automatic free music download is enabled, your music library will remain up to date with the latest free music available in the music store". Do you also think it's reasonable to infer from that language that you can expect unwanted music to be downloaded to your music library whenever your phone feels like it?

Oddly, I did use a music service on my Android tablet. Among other things, it sent information back when I listened to a song (song title, performer, how long I listened to it) which is used to keep track of what users are listening to. At the same time, it checked if there were any new recommended titles for me and download them in the background if I was connected to a WiFi network. You could also set what it calls manual sync times when it did a full sync, download updated recommendation lists though the genre sort of those is atrocious, clean out songs you haven't listened to in anywhen from 1 week to 3 months, etc.

Other than my having to purchase books from Kobo or borrow them from the library, pretty much the same.

I'd probably still be using that service except that they decided to jump the cost beyond what I considered reasonable.

[koboy]

Originally Posted by lkmiller

I consider turning on wifi an "explicit invocation" for any device to keep itself up-to-date. To me, that's the main reason for an ereader to have wifi. Being able to check Google or Wikipedia is a side benefit.

The point of scheduling a complete sync once every 24 hours is in case I didn't wake it up at all or maybe I only looked at Pocket articles that day (extremely rare for me, but it might have happened once or twice!)



In these days of everything getting connected to the internet, I'm surprised to hear that people expect anything but turning off wifi to stop *all* syncing. Looking at the Kobo's setting page, I can now sorta see how it could be misinterpreted. But I'm still surprised.

One thing that baffles me about Kindles is that they don't sync the time. Why would anything with a clock and an internet connection not keep itself on local time? Twice a year I pick up my Kindle and wonder for a moment why it's an hour off. It's the only wifi enabled thing I own that I have to manually "Spring forward" and "Fall back." And at this point, almost the only thing period.

what baffles/surprises me is why there isn't an option in Firmware 4.12.12111 in the settings menu (already) that is easy to find, so that the user/owner of the ereader as the choice to always turn off all syncing (permanently) if that's what they desire/want. it would be especially good to have for people like me who only ever sideload their books.

and of course if you don't mind syncing of any description then you can set the option to always turn on.

best wishes koboy

[dmapr]

Originally Posted by koboy

what baffles/surprises me is why there isn't an option in Firmware 4.12.12111 in the settings menu (already) that is easy to find, so that the user/owner of the ereader as the choice to always turn off all syncing (permanently) if that's what they desire/want. it would be especially good to have for people like me who only ever sideload their books.

and of course if you don't mind syncing of any description then you can set the option to always turn on.

best wishes koboy

Sorry, haven't installed 4.12 yet. Are you saying they took out the Wi-Fi checkbox? That's the one I use on my Kobo to turn off all syncing (permanently) and I have to say it works extremely well. I haven't noticed any unexpected syncing happening at all.

[koboy]

Originally Posted by dmapr

Sorry, haven't installed 4.12 yet. Are you saying they took out the Wi-Fi checkbox? That's the one I use on my Kobo to turn off all syncing (permanently) and I have to say it works extremely well. I haven't noticed any unexpected syncing happening at all.

reading posts 261 and 263 will provide as much clarity for you as they did for me.

it would seem that if you never want your ereader to sync then you best make sure you don't use the web browser.

if that's the case then it's nice to know, although i never use it anyway. ereader for reading ebooks solely works for me.

best wishes koboy

[davidfor]

Originally Posted by dmapr

Sorry, haven't installed 4.12 yet. Are you saying they took out the Wi-Fi checkbox? That's the one I use on my Kobo to turn off all syncing (permanently) and I have to say it works extremely well. I haven't noticed any unexpected syncing happening at all.

Nothing has changed in this respect for at least two years. And that option does not do, and never did, what you think it does. It only turns of the scheduled sync. That's what the recent discussion has been about.

Obviously to stuck on the recent discussion and didn't read this properly. At least the the first was correct, accidentally.

[JeanPierre]

Originally Posted by lkmiller

I consider turning on wifi an "explicit invocation" for any device to keep itself up-to-date. To me, that's the main reason for an ereader to have wifi. Being able to check Google or Wikipedia is a side benefit.

The key words here being "To me". There are other reasons for using the wifi connection other than syncing, and other users make use of them. This argument is nonsense unless you're a solipsist. Syncing as a consequence of turning on wifi is a side-effect, not an explicit invocation. An explicit invocation of sync is pressing the sync button only.

Originally Posted by lkmiller

In these days of everything getting connected to the internet, I'm surprised to hear that people expect anything but turning off wifi to stop *all* syncing. Looking at the Kobo's setting page, I can now sorta see how it could be misinterpreted. But I'm still surprised.

By this rationale you shouldn't be surprised to learn that a device with a wifi radio called back home even with wifi off then. You appear to be indifferent in attitude to your devices sharing information without your knowledge or consent. Your personal indifference to it doesn't make it sound design (to ignore any ethical or legal dimensions completely).

Originally Posted by koboy

what baffles/surprises me is why there isn't an option in Firmware 4.12.12111 in the settings menu (already) that is easy to find, so that the user/owner of the ereader as the choice to always turn off all syncing (permanently) if that's what they desire/want. it would be especially good to have for people like me who only ever sideload their books.

Yes, exactly. I'm also one of those people who only ever sideloads their books.

Originally Posted by DNSB

I know several people who use their ereaders anywhen from on the weekend to maybe once or twice a month. For them, the scheduled sync would help to keep them up to date.

Keep them up-to-date with what? What on a device that is barely being used needs to be kept up-to-date on a daily basis?

Originally Posted by DNSB

...

I'd probably still be using that service except that they decided to jump the cost beyond what I considered reasonable.

Just because you're personally comfortable - if that's what you're saying - with free things being downloaded to your device with no way to stop it, that doesn't mean other users will be.

Originally Posted by dmapr

Sorry, haven't installed 4.12 yet. Are you saying they took out the Wi-Fi checkbox? That's the one I use on my Kobo to turn off all syncing (permanently) and I have to say it works extremely well. I haven't noticed any unexpected syncing happening at all.

The patronising tone of this message seems misplaced to me given that the assumption that would justify it is incorrect: It is not the case that the only reason to connect to wifi is that so your device syncs.

If you learned the device silently connected to any stored networks that were available and synced on occasion, even with wifi disabled, would you be okay with that too?




In summary, my message is:

1. The language used in the settings page is insufficient to infer its purpose without having observed syncs occurring with it disabled.
2. It is a problem that there is no way to completely disable all syncing with Kobo when wifi is enabled.

If you wish to disagree with these points, that is fine, but please recognise whether you're making an argument from the perspective of a designer, who accounts for likely use cases of everyone who uses the device, or from your own narrow perspective of how you use your device. It happens to be the case that several users in this thread perceive the lack of an option to disable automatic syncs when connected to wifi to be a problem, and the reason for this is not simply poor reading comprehension, as a number of you seem intent to imply. That is just rudeness, plain and simple.

Insofar as further engaging in this discussion in this thread appears to be both an exercise in futility and off-topic, at this point I would reiterate something davidfor said earlier and encourage everyone that believes there should be an option to disable all automatic syncs to send Kobo an email on the subject. I, for one, will be doing exactly this.

[Terisa de morgan]

Originally Posted by JeanPierre

Insofar as further engaging in this discussion in this thread appears to be both an exercise in futility and off-topic, at this point I would reiterate something davidfor said earlier and encourage everyone that believes there should be an option to disable all automatic syncs to send Kobo an email on the subject. I, for one, will be doing exactly this.

For me, this is the most important point. If you have a complain with the device, send it to the manufacturer, who is the only one who can do something about it, even it's only to add a tick to the number of users that want a feature.