I have found numerous pirated ebooks for free online. Please tell me the benefits of

[DiapDealer]

Originally Posted by barryem

It does cost less to make and sell an ebook once there's a print book. Also there's the long tail of the ebook, which should affect pricing

Assumes facts not in evidence. Also ignores advantages that ebooks have over physical books. Those advantages hold value to many. In the game of pricing and supply and demand, it's rarely as simply as "costs less to make so it should be lots cheaper."

When it comes to pbook vs ebook pricing, it is my personal opinion that the generally "same-same" pricing scheme we have (with a slight edge to ebooks) is more than warranted/fair. I never did place much value in the book-as-an-object. It's the content (and the pleasure I derive from reading it) that I place the vast majority of the value on--physical or digital. *shrug*

[ZodWallop]

Originally Posted by Deskisamess

Sure, but it used to be a frequent complaint of users on the old Amazon forum, but most posters couldn't back up their rants about digital books always costing more than print versions.

Always? Of course not. But here are a few books I found without having to look too hard:

The Devil in the White City
Kindle: $11.99
Paperback: $9.79

Dune
Kindle: $9.99
Paperback: $8.99

Tuesdays With Morrie
Kindle: $11.99
Paperback: $9.92

East of Eden
Kindle: $14.99
Paperback: $12.23

The Girl on the Train
Kindle: $9.99
Paperback: $7.09

Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?
Kindle: $11.99
Paperback: $9.32

The Han Solo Adventures
Kindle: $7.99
Paperback: $6.47

Now, I understand that there's usually reasons. Amazon can discount the paper book but not the Kindle book. But still, there's the perception problem. To the average Joe, the e-version should be cheaper than the physical copy. It's what the news and PR firms tell them and it's been this way for movies and music and (in general) e-books are cheaper. So when they aren't, it feels like the seller is greedy, regardless of the truth of things.

And that leads to this problem:

Given the tread topic, the question to rogueconnecticut is, is high price a defensible motivation for piracy?

My answer to that is: who cares? You can judge all you want, but it won't do a lick of good. The best way to fight digital piracy is to make the content easily available to buyers at a reasonable price.

What killed Napster and its ilk was Apple selling songs for $0.99. Not the threat of arrest.

The ubiquity of Netflix was driving down movie piracy. I suspect that won't last when each studio or network thinks they're Disney and launches their own streaming service.

My POV is that digital books are worth more than print version because of the benefits they offer.

I agree. Also, most of the books I buy aren't put out by the bigs and once you leave them, e-books are quite a bit cheaper.

But there's still the perception that digital should be cheaper than physical.

[DiapDealer]

Originally Posted by ZodWallop

My answer to that is: who cares? You can judge all you want, but it won't do a lick of good. The best way to fight digital piracy is to make the content easily available to buyers at a reasonable price.

Whose reasonable, though? I think the price of ebooks is already eminently reasonable. So do many others. What you're saying seems to be that content needs to be dirt cheap in order to convince people not to steal it. To which I say: who cares what people who're willing to steal (oops! violate copyright) consider is a reasonable price to get them to stop? They've already proven themselves unreasonable by their actions.

[SleepyBob]

Originally Posted by Deskisamess

Sure, but it used to be a frequent complaint of users on the old Amazon forum, but most posters couldn't back up their rants about digital books always costing more than print versions. Many times they were looking at prices for used books, and many times had not really done serious price checking.

My POV is that digital books are worth more than print version because of the benefits they offer.

Given the tread topic, the question to rogueconnecticut is, is high price a defensible motivation for piracy?

I think you are putting words in his mouth (though I haven't gone back to read his earlier posts). He said "I would read so much more if a lot of ebooks weren't a ripoff", not "I would pirate less if a lot of ebooks weren't a ripoff".

I would go to more plays if they weren't so expensive. That doesn't imply that I am currently sneaking in the back doors.

[Thasaidon]

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

Assumes facts not in evidence. Also ignores advantages that ebooks have over physical books. Those advantages hold value to many. In the game of pricing and supply and demand, it's rarely as simply as "costs less to make so it should be lots cheaper."

Agreed but you seem to be not factoring in the disadvantages of ebooks. If I buy a paper book it is mine and I can give it away, sell it or exchange it at a second hand store after I have read it.

If I buy an ebook the license does not permit me to do this.

[DiapDealer]

Originally Posted by Thasaidon

Agreed but you seem to be not factoring in the disadvantages of ebooks. If I by a paper book it is mine and I can give it away, sell it or exchange it at a second hand store after I have read it.

If I buy an ebook the license does not permit me to do this.

I understand that others may value that sort of thing. I just know that I've never sold or exchanged a book in my life. As I said, my experience reading it pretty much wrings a book dry of value. So for me, there's little difference in value between p and e. The immediacy of digital gives it a slightly higher value over print for me.

[barryem]

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

Assumes facts not in evidence. Also ignores advantages that ebooks have over physical books. Those advantages hold value to many. In the game of pricing and supply and demand, it's rarely as simply as "costs less to make so it should be lots cheaper."

A print book requires trucks to deliver it, a paper mill and paper, a bindery, etc. Also any unsold books are returned by the store for credit, increasing the cost. In addition, print books soon go out of print. Ebooks don't. Their sales are reduced but they continue to be available and generate more sales. I read an article a few years ago about the difference in cost in producing print books and ebooks. I don't recall the details but the difference was considerable.

As for supply in demand I did take that into account. And I mentioned that in a capitalist system such as ours this isn't unreasonable. It's just bad, in-your-face marketing. It's not cheating. It makes customers feel cheated. Hence all the complaints about higher prices for ebooks than print books.

Also, a print book is an object that we buy and it has trade-in value. An ebook is a license and has no resale value. And a print book doesn't require an investment in a reading device.

Barry

[barryem]

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

Whose reasonable, though?

Very few book prices are reasonable today. I bought "Hawaii" in paperback for 35 cents in 1961. Today Amazon has the paperback for $15.29.

I bought "Advise and Consent" about the same time for the same price. Or maybe it was 25 cents. Today it's on sale for $24.99, normally $29.99.

In those days most paperback novels were 10 to 15 cents and thick ones were more. I remember the price of Hawaii because it was the most expensive book I'd bought up till then. I've been using it as a joking example ever since.

In 1961, according to the inflation calculator 35 cents would be $2.98. That means they're now selling Hawaii for 5.14 times as much as they were then, adjusted for inflation.

Again, we live in a capitalist economy and they're allowed to do that. But I'm not willing to call that reasonable. I'm a strong believer in capitalism but I recognize that it has its problems and this seems like a problem.

And no, I'm not trying to justify piracy. That's a red herring and really has no place in this.

Barry

[DiapDealer]

Originally Posted by barryem

It's just bad, in-your-face marketing. It's not cheating. It makes customers feel cheated. Hence all the complaints about higher prices for ebooks than print books.

I don't think those who feel cheated and complain about ebook prices have as many compatriots as they like to think they do. They just appear to be a really, really, noisy minority to me. I mean if they were that put out, they'd just go back to lovely, correctly-priced print books and forget all about those mean, expensive, non-transferable digital disappointments, no?

[barryem]

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

I understand that others may value that sort of thing. I just know that I've never sold or exchanged a book in my life. As I said, my experience reading it pretty much wrings a book dry of value. So for me, there's little difference in value between p and e. The immediacy of digital gives it a slightly higher value over print for me.

I also have a strong preference for ebooks. I haven't read a paper book in years and I doubt I ever will again, under normal circumstances. But an ebook's value to me personally isn't really what we're talking about.

In the olden days when I did read paper books I nearly always traded them in at stores for other paper books. A lot of people do. So that has to be factored in whether you or I did or not.

Barry

[DiapDealer]

Originally Posted by barryem

I also have a strong preference for ebooks. I haven't read a paper book in years and I doubt I ever will again, under normal circumstances. But an ebook's value to me personally isn't really what we're talking about.

Yes. It really is what we're talking about. You can't prefer ebooks (to the point of expecting never to read a paper book again) and yet value them less than paper books. That you can't seem to grasp that is baffling to me. You want the format you desire more to cost less than the format you don't desire at all! Does that even sound remotely reasonable?

[DNSB]

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

Yes. It really is what we're talking about. You can't prefer ebooks (to the point of expecting never to read a paper book again) and yet value them less than paper books. That you can't seem to grasp that is baffling to me. You want the format you desire more to cost less than the format you don't desire at all! Does that even sound remotely reasonable?

Hmmm... these days I mostly purchase songs and even albums from iTunes. Oddly, it seems to be less expensive that purchasing the same content on CD even when I purchase the entire album. Add in that the the CD does not allow me to purchase the only two songs on it that are worth listening to.

I do remember several discussions about the cost of producing a dead tree book -- for a large run, i.e. bestseller sales level, the cost ran about $3.50 per book for printing and binding, never mind distribution, returns and credits, etc. Smaller runs are more expensive per book since there are fixed costs involved in getting from the electronic format supplied by the author to paper. This makes it rather hard to justify an ebook costing more than the same book in paperback.

So the complaint about ebooks costing more than paper books despite preferring ebooks is entirely valid to me. That you seem to feel that spending more on an ebook validates your preference for them is something I have a great deal of difficulty understanding.

[DuckieTigger]

Originally Posted by DNSB

So the complaint about ebooks costing more than paper books despite preferring ebooks is entirely valid to me. That you seem to feel that spending more on an ebook validates your preference for them is something I have a great deal of difficulty understanding.

How hard is it to understand that discounted paper books are NOT discounted by the publisher, but the retailer? Paper book has a 50% profit margin for the retailer at list price. Ebook has a 30% profit margin regardless of price that the publisher sets. Naturally it is much easier to discount the paper books way below list price than it would be for ebooks which the retailer is not even allowed to discount. On top of that the ebook that is discounted cuts into the share that the publisher gets. Discounted ebook equals lower royalties for the author, while discounted paper book is the same.

[darryl]

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

Yes. It really is what we're talking about. You can't prefer ebooks (to the point of expecting never to read a paper book again) and yet value them less than paper books.

Why on earth not? You use the term value here as being synonymous with price. Clearly paper books are worth just about zero to Barry. And to me. I don't "value" them and I won't pay anything for them (with a few exceptions). There are many factors involved in setting a price, even in a "market" controlled by evil oligopolists. Of course I personally am prepared to pay more for an ebook than I am prepared to pay for a paper book. This is because I am not prepared to pay anything for a paper book. It does not follow that the price I am prepared to pay for an ebook is equal to or more that the retail price of the paper book I don't want.

[DuckieTigger]

@darryl: But you are not complaining that ebooks should be lower priced than pbooks. So it really doesn't matter how much cheaper or more expensive a pbook is. All DD is trying to say is that it makes little sense to compare pbook and ebook if you already excluded pbook from your purchase decision.