George RR Martin - The Winds of Winter - Not coming soon.

[DiapDealer]

Originally Posted by pwalker8

For that matter, Name of the Wind was a pretty satisfying stand alone, in my book.

Yours would not be an opinion I trust very much on the subject, then.

For me, Name of the Wind was all build and no resolution. No payoff whatsoever for any of the subplots introduced (never mind the massive cliffhanger right at the end ). It's a classic example of a series I would not want to start if I'd known the extent of its open-endedness before I'd begun.

Resolution: it's not just a town in a Robert B. Parker western.

EDIT: And for the record, classic cliffhangers are not my main beef with a book not having any closure/resolution. I've read many series books with satisfying conclusions despite massive cliff-hangers being tossed in as teasers right at the end.

[pwalker8]

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

Yours would not be an opinion I trust very much on the subject, then.

For me, Name of the Wind was all build and no resolution. No payoff whatsoever for any of the subplots introduced (never mind the massive cliffhanger right at the end ). It's a classic example of a series I would not want to start if I'd known the extent of its open-endedness before I'd begun.

Resolution: it's not just a town in a Robert B. Parker western.

EDIT: And for the record, classic cliffhangers are not my main beef with a book not having any closure/resolution. I've read many series books with satisfying conclusions despite massive cliff-hangers being tossed in as teasers right at the end.

Different strokes for different folks. The unresolved story is a classic storytelling device, going back to the Illiad. Think of how many westerns use a similar device - stranger comes into town, aids the farmers/small time ranchers against the big guy, then rides off into the sunset. "But that's a story for another time" is one of the classic endings.

[DiapDealer]

Originally Posted by pwalker8

Different strokes for different folks. The unresolved story is a classic storytelling device, going back to the Illiad. Think of how many westerns use a similar device - stranger comes into town, aids the farmers/small time ranchers against the big guy, then rides off into the sunset. "But that's a story for another time" is one of the classic endings.

Riding off into the sunset isn't the same thing at all. The western has a satisfying conclusion, there just happens to be enough loose ends for more stories. That, as you say, IS a classic storytelling device. But that's not what we're talking about here. Building subplots and then simply stopping before anything gets resolved is not a story-telling device. It's a series-selling device. Good series writers give readers some sort of satisfying resolution in each installment (regardless if the main story might need eight installments to complete). Bad ones put the pen down and leave all the threads dangling. The Name of the Wind was nothing more than a novel-length introduction. Parts were entertaining, but it did not comprise a stand alone "story."

[Shad Plante]

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

Riding off into the sunset isn't the same thing at all. The western has a satisfying conclusion, there just happens to he enough loose ends for more stories. That, as you say, IS a classic storytelling device. But that's not what we're talking about here. Building subplots and then simply stopping before anything gets resolved is not a story-telling device. It's a series-selling device. Good series writers give readers some sort of satisfying resolution in each installment (regardless if the main story might need eight installments to complete). Bad ones put the pen down and leave all the threads dangling. The Name of the Wind was nothing more than a novel-length introduction. Parts were entertaining, but it did not comprise a stand alone "story."

Here is a quote from Rothfuss himself about the entire Kingkiller Chronicles being just prologue:
"It’s way worse than that. I am an author who has tricked you into reading a trilogy that is a million-word prologue.”

https://www.tor.com/2018/03/07/patri...-stone-book-3/

[DiapDealer]

Originally Posted by Shad Plante

Here is a quote from Rothfuss himself about the entire Kingkiller Chronicles being just prologue:
"It’s way worse than that. I am an author who has tricked you into reading a trilogy that is a million-word prologue.”

He didn't trick me. It only took me about a third of that million-word prologue to catch onto his game.

[GlenBarrington]

Apparently . . . Winter isn't coming . . .

[ShellShock]

Originally Posted by GlennD

GRRM isn't my bitch, because I refuse to read his books until he finishes the series. Already been down this path with the Wheel of Time (and respect that Jordan chose to do what he could to get his ending to his readers).

Surely there is a lot to be said for enjoying the journey and not worrying too much about the destination. If the individual books in a series have literary merit then I think they are worth reading regardless of whether there is a sequel, let alone a final book in the series. Conversely, I would not read through thousands of pages of dross just to get to a concluding book. Often final books do not live up to the hype anyway - it is almost impossible for GRRM to fulfill all his fans expectations for the GOT finale, assuming he ever releases it, so the best thing is to enjoy the preceding books in their own right.

[GlennD]

Originally Posted by ShellShock

Surely there is a lot to be said for enjoying the journey and not worrying too much about the destination. If the individual books in a series have literary merit then I think they are worth reading regardless of whether there is a sequel, let alone a final book in the series. Conversely, I would not read through thousands of pages of dross just to get to a concluding book. Often final books do not live up to the hype anyway - it is almost impossible for GRRM to fulfill all his fans expectations for the GOT finale, assuming he ever releases it, so the best thing is to enjoy the preceding books in their own right.

To each their own I suppose. I can think of several series where the destination was the real capper for the series. The Lord of the Rings, the Belgariad, and Robin Hobbs' 'Fitz and the Fool' series all had multiple chapters after the hero's work was completed. For me (and I admit I'm a sentimentalist) that was the payoff for hanging out with the characters for multiple books, even though that was a pleasant experience to begin with. (I was a touch irate with the Wheel of Time - I thought the ending was way too sudden after 14 books. As a reader, I felt like I deserved more resolution for the characters.) I'd certainly be unhappy starting a journey that I know has no destination at all.

I agree with HarryT above - it's not such a big deal when a series is episodic. With a Dresden/Mercy Thompson/Honor Harrington type of series it isn't a showstopper for me for them not to have an 'ending' book. But for a series that is one long story, it's a major disincentive to read them.

[DiapDealer]

I look at it this way: if someone hands me a standalone paperback with the last third of the pages ripped out of it, I'm not going to start reading it--no matter how many wonderful moments they assure me are in the first two-thirds of it. The ending doesn't have to be my favorite part of a book, and a bad one doesn't always invalidate greatness that came before it. But an ending DOES need to exist (or at least be in sight) before I'm going to commit. It's not an optional component. Authors who don't get that won't get my money or my recommendation.

[ShellShock]

I don’t think your analogy stands up. The standalone paperback was written and published in its entirety, and the author never intended you to only be able to read two thirds of it. Generally individual books in a series have some sort of payoff or finale at the end of the book, to give the reader satisfaction in finishing it, with enough unresolved plot lines to make you want to buy the next one, Games of Throne being a very good example.

I think the existing Game of Thrones books are some of the best fantasy novels ever written, and it is a shame if anyone cannot enjoy them just because there is no conclusion to the series in sight. For me reading is more about enjoying the journey along the way, and not worrying too much about the destination. Often the end does not live up expectations anyway, and this certainly seems to be what GRRM is struggling with—how does he wrestled the many-headed monster he has spawned into a conclusion that will satisfy his demanding fans?

[DiapDealer]

Originally Posted by ShellShock

Generally individual books in a series have some sort of payoff or finale at the end of the book, to give the reader satisfaction in finishing it, with enough unresolved plot lines to make you want to buy the next one, Games of Throne being a very good example.

If you're seriously suggesting that each of the books in Martin's "A Song of Ice and Fire" have a satisfying payoff at the end of them, then we've clearly read different versions of them.

I'm also guessing that you came relatively late to the series, and were able to read the first 4 or 5 books straight through at your own pace. Let us know your thoughts on the subject after you've accrued more than a decade or so of wait time.

Originally Posted by ShellShock

and this certainly seems to be what GRRM is struggling with—how does he wrestled the many-headed monster he has spawned into a conclusion that will satisfy his demanding fans?

That's pretty dramatic, isn't it? He's already got a pretty solid idea how to bring it to a satisfying conclusion. In fact, he told HBO the broad strokes of that plan and they've already filmed it. The world will know who rides the dragons to triumph by this summer at the very latest (unless, of course, readers are prepared to wear earplugs at the water-cooler for the next 15 years to avoid "spoilers").

[pwalker8]

Originally Posted by ShellShock

I don’t think your analogy stands up. The standalone paperback was written and published in its entirety, and the author never intended you to only be able to read two thirds of it. Generally individual books in a series have some sort of payoff or finale at the end of the book, to give the reader satisfaction in finishing it, with enough unresolved plot lines to make you want to buy the next one, Games of Throne being a very good example.

I think the existing Game of Thrones books are some of the best fantasy novels ever written, and it is a shame if anyone cannot enjoy them just because there is no conclusion to the series in sight. For me reading is more about enjoying the journey along the way, and not worrying too much about the destination. Often the end does not live up expectations anyway, and this certainly seems to be what GRRM is struggling with—how does he wrestled the many-headed monster he has spawned into a conclusion that will satisfy his demanding fans?

For the most part, I agree with you. Just enjoy the read. My biggest issue with WOT wasn't that it was 13 books, it was that after the second or third book, there was so much dross that it was difficult to wade through for me.

In general, authors seem to lose steam after a certain number of books in a long running series. It's just hard to keep the story going, plus I think that many best seller authors will listen less and less to editors and there is less and less pressure to go that last 10% of polish to make it a top notch book.

[applesauce]

I agree with every word. He is being beyond rude, he has stated he will not allow anybody to finish the series if he dies before he finishes. If he doesn't want to finish find somebody to finish it. He was more than happy to let HBO do so with the series.

Originally Posted by GlennD

GRRM isn't my bitch, because I refuse to read his books until he finishes the series. Already been down this path with the Wheel of Time (and respect that Jordan chose to do what he could to get his ending to his readers).

Martin and other authors are hurting the genre, IMO. I will simply not read any 'epic fantasy' series until the author finishes it - and it is due to the failure of Martin and authors like him (Melanie Rawn, anyone?) to fulfill what I believe is at least an implied agreement. It may be 'art' but it is also 'product' and a writer who can't produce will find himself with a hobby instead of a job.

(The one person who gets a pass from me on this is Brandon Sanderson....because he has shown himself to be not only very good but prolific as well. He's also young enough that I actually believe he will finish the series he has started. )

[ZodWallop]

Originally Posted by applesauce

I agree with every word. He is being beyond rude, he has stated he will not allow anybody to finish the series if he dies before he finishes.

Where you see rudeness, I see artistic integrity.

I guess it comes down to whether you consider the product/franchise more important or the artist?

If he doesn't want to finish find somebody to finish it. He was more than happy to let HBO do so with the series.

The difference is that he's heavily involved in the HBO series.

[NNolan]

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

He's already got a pretty solid idea how to bring it to a satisfying conclusion. In fact, he told HBO the broad strokes of that plan and they've already filmed it. The world will know who rides the dragons to triumph by this summer at the very latest (unless, of course, readers are prepared to wear earplugs at the water-cooler for the next 15 years to avoid "spoilers").

GRRM admitted in a letter back around '92, when he was shopping the first book and the idea of the whole series around to publishers, that once he knows how a story will end he loses interest in writing the ending. He also said he doesn't usually follow an outline; he just starts writing and goes where he feels the story is taking him. Which probably explains why books 4 and 5 were such a mess.