Why haven't e-book companies patched their DRM?

[dschill]

It costs them too much mula and there still makin money so who cares to them right?

[Boston]

Originally Posted by zelda_pinwheel

well... i have to disagree with this... i don't think it deters anyone who is determined to share their files, and i DO think that it sometimes prevents honest customers from accessing their legitimately purchased content..

I agree it doesn't deter anyone who is determined to share their files; however, I do think it sends a clear statement that its "not okay to share" (and that is sufficient given the current market).

I personally have no problems breaking DRM for personal use but as long as its there wouldn't crack it so I could distribute. For example, I use igors scripts to borrow library books but don't go as far as removing DRM completely so I can share those with my mother. However, if there were no drm at all, I probably would be more tempted to do so.

I know I may be in the minority here, but I don't have a problem with DRM itself, but do wish the industry would adopt a common standard so as not to tie us to particualr sellers or devices.

[zelda_pinwheel]

Originally Posted by Boston

I agree it doesn't deter anyone who is determined to share their files; however, I do think it sends a clear statement that its "not okay to share" (and that is sufficient given the current market).

meh... we're not children. people who won't share anyway don't need that message, and people who will share don't hear / care about that message. i really don't think it changes anything.

I personally have no problems breaking DRM for personal use but as long as its there wouldn't crack it so I could distribute. For example, I use igors scripts to borrow library books but don't go as far as removing DRM completely so I can share those with my mother. However, if there were no drm at all, I probably would be more tempted to do so.

I know I may be in the minority here, but I don't have a problem with DRM itself, but do wish the industry would adopt a common standard so as not to tie us to particualr sellers or devices.

well, i think you may well be in the minority here, particularly if you're saying that only the presence of drm prevents you from sharing library books with your mother...

personally, i haven't been reading / buying ebooks that long (a little over 1 year) and i have *already* had bad experiences with drm books which i have bought and then lost access to for no good reason (i had to reinstall the system on my computer ; new id number, drm server doesn't recognize it, no downloading of my books for me. books that i paid for, and many of which i had not read yet.). the ONLY reason i still will be able to read those books (that i bought !) is because right away when i purchased them i removed the drm and saved a backup of the drm-free file. if i lose those backups, though, i'm out of luck : either i forget about the books, or i buy them again. that's drm for you. i think a lot of people, in that situation, will feel completely justified in downloading illicit copies.

i make my own choices about what is ethical : i want to support authors so they will continue to write, so i buy books from them. but i also choose which books i buy carefully, because i'm not rich, and buying books is admittedly something of a luxury. so when i do buy a book, i want to keep it forever, and i want to be able to read it whenever i want, however i want, on the device i choose, as many times as i choose (i do re-read books i like)... etc.

drm is not going to change my mind about what is acceptable behavior, and it's not going to influence how i use my books, except to discourage me from spending money on books with drm that can't be cracked. i'm overjoyed that adobe's epub drm has been cracked, because that is my preferred format, and i want to support the industry standard (lord knows we need a standard format !!), but before it had been cracked i was worried about buying books and then losing access to them in the (possibly very near) future. if adobe patches their drm and the crack no longer works, i'll go back to buying lit books when there is no drm-free version available, removing the drm immediately, and saving a backup, just in case.

i consider my library an investment, and drm lowers its value significantly.

[Moejoe]

DRM's other grand purpose, although not much stated, is to introduce scarcity into a market that by its very nature is abundant. Old economies rely on scarcity, oil, farm produce, books, CD's etc, but once you go digital an unlimited number of copies can be produced with little or no overhead. With DRM they force this scarcity model on products in the hopes that we'll treat them as we did earlier forms of entertainment, and more likely, so they can treat these new markets as they did the old.

Unsurprisingly this hasn't worked and can never work. It takes only one digital copy stripped of DRM for the whole scheme to be worthless. Just one. File ZERO becomes the base for a million other copies, all unecumbered, all without restriction and out of the control of those who would wish to have control.

The battle was lost a long time ago. They could have listened and learned. They could have embraced the internet and created fair models that would have negated the rise of the filesharing community.

They didn't, and now they're hurting, on-the-run, desperate to shoehorn dying business models into a world and a consumer base that is becoming rapidly used to 'getting-something-for-nothing'.

[Boston]

well, i think you may well be in the minority here, particularly if you're saying that only the presence of drm prevents you from sharing library books with your mother...

While you may not mean it, I really didn't appreciate the tone of your response.
It sounds like an attack of what you perceive to be my lack of values and promotion of yours.

To being with, you misquoted me from the start...I said "tempted", I didn't say "would"..all I was trying to to point out is that drm is a deterrent for many. For example, I know many people who occasionally share mp3s with friends...because the lack of drm doesn't make them think twice that what they may be doing is wrong. I'll ask how they like something and the response is "I can make you a copy". (And for the record, I still buy my music).

I think our values are the same..I value authors, musicians, libraries..heck, I even still make purchases at bookstores because I like browsing them. What I don't agree with is that the rest of the world necessarily shares the same (or that mobileread forum members necessarily represent the larger mass market)

[zelda_pinwheel]

Originally Posted by Boston

While you may not mean it, I really didn't appreciate the tone of your response.
It felt like an attack an attack of what you perceive to be my values and promotion of yours.

I said "tempted", I didn't say "would"..all I was trying to to point out is that drm is a deterrent for many. For example, I know many people who occasionally share mp3s with friends...because the lack of drm doesn't make them think twice that what they may be doing is wrong. I'll ask how they like something and the response is "I can make you a copy". (And for the record, I still buy my music).

i apologise, i wasn't questioning your ethics or your behavior at all, i was questioning the effect of drm, and i'm sorry if that was unclear from my post. i certainly did not intend for it to seem an attack in any way. if you say it works as a deterrent to you, i believe you ; however i don't believe that on a larger scale it is effective.

sharing music among friends didn't start or stop with drm ; when i was a teenager, i made (for myself, and for friends) and recieved many mix tapes (remember those ? ah, nostalgie...) to share music i loved with friends, or to commemorate a special event, or to create an ambiance for a party... i still have many of those mix tapes (which, ironically, i can only listen to by converting them to mp3, since i no longer have a cassette player). now, if a friend finds a new artist he thinks i'll like, he might send me an email with an mp3, or a link to deezer. but, if i like the music, i'll still buy the album, because i want to support the artists i like.

with books it's the same ; i can't even count how many authors i've discovered because a friend lent me a book, and how many of my own books i've lent to friends (some of them i never saw again if i could lend out my ebooks i wouldn't have that problem). when you lend a book to a friend because you've discovered this brilliant author you're sure they're going to love, you're passing on part of our shared culture, and creating a larger audience for the author. that friend, if they like the author, will probably go on to buy more of their books.

admittedly, digital files take sharing to a whole new level ; instead of making one mix tape for one friend, you can share you entire music library with the whole world. but i really do think that most of us are capable of making the disctintion, and of deciding for ourselves what we think is right. i don't think drm will really be a factor in those choices, for the majority of people.

[Moejoe]

Originally Posted by Boston

While you may not mean it, I really didn't appreciate the tone of your response.
It sounds like an attack of what you perceive to be my values and promotion of yours.

To being with, you misquoted me in your attack...I said "tempted", I didn't say "would"..all I was trying to to point out is that drm is a deterrent for many. For example, I know many people who occasionally share mp3s with friends...because the lack of drm doesn't make them think twice that what they may be doing is wrong. I'll ask how they like something and the response is "I can make you a copy". (And for the record, I still buy my music).

I'd like to respond to your assumption, some of which I agree with, if I may.

It's within the generational shift that your point makes most sense to me. Those brought up in a world pre-filesharing, or on the cusp, were grounded in the scarcity of product. I grew up in this time frame and because of it I kept with me the notion of scarcity for a long time. I would wait months, even years for books, music and movies to become available in their respective formats. I spent countless thousands on CD's transitioning from Vinyl to CD, same for VHS to DVD and there is still within me the nagging doubt that when I download something for free (no matter if I bought it countless times before in other formats) that I'm cheating someone somewhere.

The new generation have no concept of this. Brought up on the internet, their very notion of ownership has changed. They not only share music and movies, but their lives. Facebook, Myspace, Bebo and all the rest have opened up this generation like no other. DRM to them would be as laughable to my generation when they were told not to tape television shows and keep them. I know this from my young nephews. There isn't a second thought in their head when they download a song or send it across bluetooth to a friend. It has no 'intrinsic value' as a physical product might have.

This generation and the generations to follow will look upon these dark days of DRM as laughable. They'll be downloading music, movies and books without any payment, restriction or a second thought about legality. There will be no guilt in their minds and there is no way to stop it.

[Boston]

MoeJoe - you actually said what I was afraid to say but was thinking in making my point. And perhaps if I did, my point would've been clearer.

I completely avoided mentioning age or generation because I know there are exceptions that would be offended (just like I hate when the younger generation points to mine as not being flexible or tech savvy )

[zelda_pinwheel]

Originally Posted by Moejoe

I'd like to respond to your assumption, some of which I agree with, if I may.

It's within the generational shift that your point makes most sense to me. Those brought up in a world pre-filesharing, or on the cusp, were grounded in the scarcity of product. I grew up in this time frame and because of it I kept with me the notion of scarcity for a long time. I would wait months, even years for books, music and movies to become available in their respective formats. I spent countless thousands on CD's transitioning from Vinyl to CD, same for VHS to DVD and there is still within me the nagging doubt that when I download something for free (no matter if I bought it countless times before in other formats) that I'm cheating someone somewhere.

The new generation have no concept of this. Brought up on the internet, their very notion of ownership has changed. They not only share music and movies, but their lives. Facebook, Myspace, Bebo and all the rest have opened up this generation like no other. DRM to them would be as laughable to my generation when they were told not to tape television shows and keep them. I know this from my young nephews. There isn't a second thought in their head when they download a song or send it across bluetooth to a friend. It has no 'intrinsic value' as a physical product might have.

This generation and the generations to follow will look upon these dark days of DRM as laughable. They'll be downloading music, movies and books without any payment, restriction or a second thought about legality. There will be no guilt in their minds and there is no way to stop it.

suddenly i feel old.

you bring up a good point though ; it's a question of shifting cultural values and attitudes toward sharing everything online. and i think the difference between the attitudes of the pre-p2p generation and the generation that grew up with it is significant. i think the social model is changing, and the role of intellectual property is changing, and distribution models are also changing, because media are changing. it will be very interesting what kind of solutions and new models we come up with now.

[Moejoe]

Originally Posted by zelda_pinwheel

suddenly i feel old.

you bring up a good point though ; it's a question of shifting cultural values and attitudes toward sharing everything online. and i think the difference between the attitudes of the pre-p2p generation and the generation that grew up with it is significant. i think the social model is changing, and the role of intellectual property is changing, and distribution models are also changing, because media are changing. it will be very interesting what kind of solutions and new models we come up with now.

I would place my bets on the gift economy becoming the prevalent means of payment in this 'Brave New World' we're transitioning toward. The slow, monolithic, bottom-liners at the corporations have no way to deal with a world that as it expands outward, also shrinks inward; let me explain what I mean.

As it stands, a top-tier of authors, musicians, artists and the like take up the vast majority of any profit. They are your Stephen King's, your Britney Spears, your Bruce Willis's and the like. Under the new model, in the Brave New World, these people would no longer exist, along with the companies that produce them. So what comes next? Well, each artist now produces his work gratis, with no thought of profit (this also has the side-benefit of thinning out the ones in it for money and fame). Released world-wide and in an instant through the internet, said artist gathers a fanbase, a collection of maybe a few thousand, possibly less, or maybe more. They, the readers, the listeners, the watchers in gratitude for the entertainment they've been given, gift the creator with money or whatever is needed. The artist now has a direct relationship with his/her audience, a symbiosis that means as long as the audience is there and ready to recompense the artist, the work continues to be created.

Set prices will dissapear along with the slow and bloated corporations. Mega-hyper-millionaire artists will become less and less frequent. Countless artists will make a living, never achieving riches, but comfortable in that they can create for an audience that supports them.

This is how I see the future.

[zelda_pinwheel]

hm, very interesting theory ! that could well happen. ironically, the future as you've described it, in some ways, resembles strongly the past...

[Boston]

Originally Posted by zelda_pinwheel

i can't even count how many authors i've discovered because a friend lent me a book, and how many of my own books i've lent to friends (some of them i never saw again if i could lend out my ebooks i wouldn't have that problem). when you lend a book to a friend because you've discovered this brilliant author you're sure they're going to love, you're passing on part of our shared culture, and creating a larger audience for the author. that friend, if they like the author, will probably go on to buy more of their books.

Yes...the inability to share books with others is the biggest drawback I have personally (and why I bought my mother a Kindle). Its also the reason many of my friends have not jumped on the eBook bandwagon.

So I should say that my biggest issue with DRM is the lack of a universal standard and the inability to transfer license. In fact, I'd even be willing to pay a nominal fee (say $1) for the ability to do the latter.

[zelda_pinwheel]

Originally Posted by Boston

Yes...the inability to share books with others is the biggest drawback I have personally (and why I bought my mother a Kindle). Its also the reason many of my friends have not jumped on the eBook bandwagon.

So I should say that my biggest issue with DRM is the lack of a universal standard and the inability to transfer license. In fact, I'd even be willing to pay a nominal fee (say $1) for the ability to do the latter.

i think in fact we are fundamentally in agreement, but simply have different ideas of how to go about things.

i agree with you ; we need a universal standard so that incompatibility issues will be a thing of the past, but for me, that is tied to format, not drm, and that is why i support epub (the new industry standard format). partly this is for purely personal reasons : i first started with an eb1150, a brilliant device which is notorious for reading EXCLUSIVELY a closed, proprietary, dead-end format that no other device will read and that can't be converted and is laughable as an archival format because it's already been obsolete for years. so every book i bought had to be converted to the appropriate format, and sometimes with pretty horrible results. and that gets tedious. (oh, and also i'm a webdesigner, so hello browser wars, haven't we done this already ?).

as for sharing with your mother / sister / wife / husband / close friends, a universal format will also help with this, but again, i refer to the file format (like epub) when i say that.

i really believe that drm doesn't change anything when it comes down to large-scale file-sharing. the people who want to do this, will do it regardless, and drm won't stop them (as we've seen, with music, films, video games, etc.). the people who don't want to do this, wouldn't do it *even if* drm wasn't there, because they have made their decision based on their own ethics and values, and not just the superficial block of an easily-removed / broken / gotten around drm system.

drm, when you look closely at it, is really no more than an attempt to lock you in to a specific vendor, whether it's hardware (kindle) or software (mobipocket). and even there it may fail, since the people who are really determined (the eb1150 users ) will manage to convert to whatever format is convenient to them.

so in reality it's an inconvenient, pointless, ineffective waste of money. and that's putting it mildly.

[Moejoe]

It is, as the saying goes, Defective by Design http://www.defectivebydesign.org/

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by Robotech_Master

I suppose the "cracked DRM = more sales" theory is one possible explanation, but I'm always a bit suspicious of "conspiracy theory" ideas like that. I mean, given that the publishers are the ones clamoring for DRM, you would think they would insist that e-book vendors keep their DRM secure and uncrackable.

If the DRM vendors changed the DRM, they would lose sales unless they could be 100% sure that all the programs out there that handled their old DRM was updated to also handle the new DRM. How would you feel as a customer if you had say a Gen3 and Mobipocket updated their DRM and started releasing new eBooks with this new DRM but Bookeen did not yet get out a new firmware to allow you to read these new eBooks?