Sexism/racism etc in older fiction

[sealbeater]

Originally Posted by ZodWallop

Never look into The Turner Diaries. Books can be anything their authors want them to be.

In judging a book, I try to be mindful of the times it was written in.

Personally, that is one of the books on the list I tell people everyone should read.

As for the whole being mindful of the times things, I disagree. Racism is racism, sexism is sexism, just because something was more open doesn't change its' nature. If it's wrong now, it was wrong then.

I do think history shouldn't be "whitewashed" as it were. If things happened, they happened. Let them stand.

[sealbeater]

Originally Posted by barryem

Here's a video by Simon Winchester about Al Jolson that's very pertinent to this discussion:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f5Tm7bMUhUw

It seems Jolson is thought of as a racist today because he's mostly remembered for the film "The Jazz Singer" in which he appeared a lot in blackface. In fact, he was very much not a racist in real life and helped a lot of black performers get their start. Newspapers in Harlem proclaimed him a hero and huge numbers of blacks attended his funeral.

It's hard to judge another time from our time. And given the issues we face today I'm not sure our time is so much better than the past.

Barry

There was never a time in history that blackface wasn't insulting to Black people.

The fact that the oppressed people of the time were able to seperate the privileged man from the System doesn't make it harder to judge the System from our time.

I don't think it's hard to judge another time at all. Only the details change, the story pretty much stays the same.

[ZodWallop]

Originally Posted by DuckieTigger

Have you, personally, read it or just heard about it? Is it worth reading as a piece of fiction? Well written?

I know of it, but haven't read it. It's not because I won't read something I disagree with. It's just not something I have any interest in. If I were to read either of that man's books, I'd likely read Hunter.

The only reason I brought it up at all is to point out that of course a book can be racist.

[ZodWallop]

Originally Posted by sealbeater

Personally, that is one of the books on the list I tell people everyone should read.

As for the whole being mindful of the times things, I disagree. Racism is racism, sexism is sexism, just because something was more open doesn't change its' nature. If it's wrong now, it was wrong then.

I do think history shouldn't be "whitewashed" as it were. If things happened, they happened. Let them stand.

I think your third paragraph agrees with what most everyone else is saying when they talk about being mindful of the times.

[barryem]

Originally Posted by sealbeater

There was never a time in history that blackface wasn't insulting to Black people.

Simon Winchester doesn't completely agree with you, or disagree. Did you watch the video? It's an excellent look at this part of this issue.

There were a lot of people who said that Amos and Andy was insulting to blacks; so many that it was taken off the air, including reruns. Then, a decade later black people and others began to realize that it was part of how whites began to perceive blacks as fully human.

Some say that the foolish character of Kingfish was insulting to blacks. Another show around the same time, almost as popular a show for almost as long, both radio and TV, was The Life of Riley, and the main character was even more foolish. And then there was Archie Bunker?

These things aren't stereotypes of blacks or of whites. They're mocking the foolishness in all of us in exaggerated fashion and it's good for us. Leaving blacks out of that is what would be insulting. What we're missing is a show with an oriental fool. We've had shows (Jack Benny) with Jewish fools.

Barry

[sealbeater]

Originally Posted by barryem

Simon Winchester doesn't completely agree with you, or disagree. Did you watch the video? It's an excellent look at this part of this issue.

He is welcome to disagree. A quick google search on his image tells me all I need to know about the quality of his opinion.

No, I did not watch the video.

Why don't you ask any Black person what their historical opinon of blackface was? I'm sure you could perhaps find some old black man and tell him what you just told me.

Originally Posted by barryem

There were a lot of people who said that Amos and Andy was insulting to blacks; so many that it was taken off the air, including reruns. Then, a decade later black people and others began to realize that it was part of how whites began to perceive blacks as fully human.

What?!?!

You think that black people began to realize that somehow it was a mark of honour that whites made fun of black people and perpetuated racist stereotypes for the amusement of the privileged stepping on the oppressed??

Wow..really, just wow.

Originally Posted by barryem

Some say that the foolish character of Kingfish was insulting to blacks. Another show around the same time, almost as popular a show for almost as long, both radio and TV, was The Life of Riley, and the main character was even more foolish. And then there was Archie Bunker?

I'm not sure what point you are trying to make. "Some say"?

Originally Posted by barryem

These things aren't stereotypes of blacks or of whites. They're mocking the foolishness in all of us in exaggerated fashion and it's good for us. Leaving blacks out of that is what would be insulting.
Barry

Wow. Your unconscious racism actually hurts. I looked at you as if we were kindred spirits, myself when I got a bit older but I can see that's impossible.

Those things are stereotypes of whites and blacks. Harmful ones that help the System.

They aren't mocking the foolishness in all of us. They are programming you to think whites are superior and to program blacks to think that we were inferior. That is nothing to celebrate.

Originally Posted by barryem

What we're missing is a show with an oriental fool.

First off, oriental is used to refer to rugs and vases, things, not people.

Second off, there were tons of shows with Asian stereotypes. Always played by white people.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Examples_of_yellowface

[sealbeater]

Originally Posted by ZodWallop

I know of it, but haven't read it. It's not because I won't read something I disagree with. It's just not something I have any interest in. If I were to read either of that man's books, I'd likely read Hunter.

The only reason I brought it up at all is to point out that of course a book can be racist.

Wait a minute. Why would you bring up a book you haven't read?

I personally found The Turner Diaries to be an extremely illuminating and educational book. Very well written and clearly instructive and written by someone who was intelligent.

[sealbeater]

Originally Posted by ZodWallop

I think your third paragraph agrees with what most everyone else is saying when they talk about being mindful of the times.

I'm not so sure. I'm picking up a certain apologist vibe. Oh, "it's just the product of their times" so it's ok if people were racists. No, it's not ok. Let it stand so people can see what the mentality was like but I can certainly judge regardless of the times. There are certain principles that stand.

[DuckieTigger]

Sealbeater, you make little sense.

Originally Posted by sealbeater

Personally, that is one of the books on the list I tell people everyone should read.

As for the whole being mindful of the times things, I disagree. Racism is racism, sexism is sexism, just because something was more open doesn't change its' nature. If it's wrong now, it was wrong then.

You tell people to read it to see how bad racism is? From what I can read about the book, it won't convince anyone to switch sides and become national socialists. And thank you, your recommendation is reason enough to never touch the book.

Originally Posted by sealbeater

He is welcome to disagree. A quick google search on his image tells me all I need to know about the quality of his opinion.

Now who turned into a racist?

Originally Posted by sealbeater

I personally found The Turner Diaries to be an extremely illuminating and educational book. Very well written and clearly instructive and written by someone who was intelligent.

I see, you actually are against racism. Since by the end there isn't anybody to hate on anymore.

[GlennD]

Originally Posted by sealbeater

What?!?!

You think that black people began to realize that somehow it was a mark of honour that whites made fun of black people and perpetuated racist stereotypes for the amusement of the privileged stepping on the oppressed??

Wow..really, just wow.

I've never watched an episode of Amos and Andy, so I can't have much of an opinion about the content. But it is worth noting that there is (apparently) some disagreement about it within the black community:

In 1983, a one-hour documentary film called Amos 'n' Andy: Anatomy of a Controversy aired in television syndication (and in later years, on PBS and on the Internet). It told a brief history of the franchise from its radio days to the CBS series, and featured interviews with then-surviving cast members, as well as then-popular black television stars such as Redd Foxx and Marla Gibbs reflecting on the show's impact on their careers. Foxx and Gibbs emphasized the importance of the show featuring black actors in lead roles and expressed disagreement with the NAACP's objections that had contributed to the program's downfall.

[DiapDealer]

Originally Posted by DuckieTigger

Sealbeater, you make little sense.

I actually thought they made perfect very coherent points.

[DuckieTigger]

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

I actually thought they made perfect very coherent points.

He cannot say that racism is never okay and should not be downplayed by the time they were written. And then turn around and say that The Turner Diaries are "well written and clearly instructive." Instructive to what? On what not to do?

[DiapDealer]

Originally Posted by DuckieTigger

He cannot say that racism is never okay and should not be downplayed by the time they were written. And then turn around and say that The Turner Diaries are "well written and clearly instructive." Instructive to what? On what not to do?

Quite possibly, yes. Why not? The point is that there's a difference between reading about racism and giving racism (past or present) a free pass because "that's just the way it was."

They (nor I) are not suggesting that the past be erased/banned/censured because of racism, but accepting that racism used to be more "mainstream" is a far cry from giving it a free pass (sign of the times, and all). It was still wrong.

The idea that past works can't be judged by today's standards doesn't acually hold water. Readers do it all the time. But just because we're capable of condemning past works because of overt racism doesn't mean we're suggesting that no one should ever read them.

[skb]

I thought this was an interesting idea (although they could struggle to get entries).

Prize Launched for Thrillers That Don't Involve Violence Against Women

Of course, there's also the Women In Refrigerators and the Bechdel Test. I've never looked at movies or books the same way after finding out about the Bechdel Test.

[Thasaidon]

Originally Posted by sealbeater

There was never a time in history that blackface wasn't insulting to Black people.

I think you are wrong.

Long before the slave trade between the New World and Africa people were blacking up for all kinds of reasons. The mummers in the UK, whose traditions go back to the time of the crusades, had at least one blacked up character.

I would also point out that in black cultures during certain ceremonies they "white up" and were doing so before they had contact with "white people". Is this insulting to "white people".

I suggest that intent is what is important here, the hypersensitive politically correct thought police should go to a very warm place.