Things in books that annoy you - Page 14

JSWolf · 01-25-2018, 05:38 AM

[QUOTE=jj2me;3646533]If the covers don't reveal romances (and that includes having vines and flowers sprouting from the cover's bottom), there are plenty of keywords found in titles that generally indicate a romance, like what's below in the spoiler (because so many just flowed out of my head and I don't want to clutter the thread with a long list):

Spoiler:

It's possible to come up with books that those words that are not romances. So I don't see how a list of words can differentiate between romance and not.

ZodWallop · 01-25-2018, 10:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sjfan

Magical realism often overlaps with fantasy. 100 Years of Solitude features an actual flying carpet.

I understand. And I can't say much without having read that particular book. I was just saying a few fantastical elements don't necessarily make a book fantasy.

ZodWallop · 01-25-2018, 10:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by doubleshuffle

Attachment 161800 Attachment 161801

I really like those old book covers, even if 1984 does look much happier than the book is.

I feel like the film version released in 1984 really nailed the atmosphere of the book.

jj2me · 01-25-2018, 10:09 AM

[QUOTE=JSWolf;3646760]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jj2me

If the covers don't reveal romances (and that includes having vines and flowers sprouting from the cover's bottom), there are plenty of keywords found in titles that generally indicate a romance, like what's below in the spoiler (because so many just flowed out of my head and I don't want to clutter the thread with a long list):

Spoiler:

It's possible to come up with books that those words that are not romances. So I don't see how a list of words can differentiate between romance and not.

"keywords" ... "generally indicate"

I'm really good at quickly filtering out romances from a list of new OverDrive books, using combinations of these and other telltale word combinations (and vines!).

Also, it's a bit of funnin' at the stereotype.

Catlady · 01-25-2018, 12:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sjfan

A Brave New World is about a dystopian future in which genetic engineering, artificial wombs, and designer drugs are used to control the population. Huxley himself said it was an extension of and reaction to an earlier work by H. G. Wells (one of the godfathers of science fiction). The only reason that it’s not considered such is because of the historical bias that science fiction is lightweight or unworthy, and therefore anything good must not be science fiction. 1984 is similar.

They are both also philosophical books, political commentary, and dystopian visions—like many books, they fall into multiple genres.

Dorian Gray isn’t science fiction, it’s fantasy. The central conceit is of a character who’s granted a wish for a magical painting. The fact that the conceit is used to examine Dorian’s personality and other broader themes doesn’t make it not fantasy, it just makes it good.

I'm not sure I know what “general fiction” connotes as opposed to simply “fiction”.

I don't know either. Somebody else used the term general fiction upthread, I think, and I parroted it. I suppose it's fiction that isn't genre fiction--literary fiction, perhaps, though that sounds snooty.

Is any book set in a future time, or with an unreal element, automatically science fiction? I wouldn't say so. What about ghost stories? Are they to be classified science fiction (or fantasy) because they feature something unreal? If an author in a thriller invents, say, a drug with certain properties and builds the story around it, does it become science fiction?

How broad should the categories be? After all, every work of fiction is invented, so is it all therefore fantasy?

DNSB · 01-25-2018, 12:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ekbell

Now I'm left wondering if Penny Dreadfuls would would have counted as genre books (if that term had been used back then).

I like reading falling-in-love stories. I know that good romances exist. Why is it that I can't find them (outside of older books, some fanfic and Bujold)?

I suspect Penny Dreadful would be the genre by today's standards. Another "genre" before the penny bloods was the horrid novels. At least one of which has survived to this day. Perhaps a discussion of whether or not that by today's standards, Frankenstein or The Modern Prometheus is science fiction?

As for why modern romances have issues? According to my wife, too many of the newer romances are more concerned with diving at the nearest bed, wall, floor, etc. than in developing the story of the couple. Sex is important but it's not enough to justify a HEA ending (HFN possibly).

Richwood · 01-25-2018, 12:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JSWolf

But there are too many books where the author tried to make it seem like it's not romance, but under the cover is a true romance. The books that have a half-naked man looking at some woman heaving her breasts at him. And you search for fantasy and these sorts of books pop up because the half-naked man is a wizard or some other fanatical elements. No thanks.

I've read books that aren't romance with romantic elements and that's OK. But it's the romance books trying to hide as a different type of book that I really can't stand.

Oh and another thing that annoys me is when I go to the library to look at what new books are at Overdrive and find more than half are romance books. That's more than annoying.

Or the LGBT MM books with two half naked guys making google eyes at one another. BTW why in western culture can men be depicted bare chested without much objection from the prudes but women cannot, particularly in the USA.

GlenBarrington · 01-25-2018, 12:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richwood

Or the LGBT MM books with two half naked guys making google eyes at one another. BTW why in western culture can men be depicted bare chested without much objection from the prudes but women cannot, particularly in the USA.

The world is not logical . . . The Universe might be logical, we don't know yet with absolute certainty, but the world we live in? Not so much!

ZodWallop · 01-25-2018, 01:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DNSB

I suspect Penny Dreadful would be the genre by today's standards. Another "genre" before the penny bloods was the horrid novels. At least one of which has survived to this day. Perhaps a discussion of whether or not that by today's standards, Frankenstein or The Modern Prometheus is science fiction?

Penny Dreadful isn't a genre unto itself. It was a format that published works in various genres.

The one that I read, A String of Pearls/Sweeney Todd would be crime or maybe horror.

DNSB · 01-25-2018, 01:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Catlady

I don't know either. Somebody else used the term general fiction upthread, I think, and I parroted it. I suppose it's fiction that isn't genre fiction--literary fiction, perhaps, though that sounds snooty.

It is snooty. As in one acquaintance of mine who loves Lawrence Durrell (he writes literature) but despises Gerald Durrell (he writes entertainment for the masses).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Catlady

Is any book set in a future time, or with an unreal element, automatically science fiction? I wouldn't say so. What about ghost stories? Are they to be classified science fiction (or fantasy) because they feature something unreal? If an author in a thriller invents, say, a drug with certain properties and builds the story around it, does it become science fiction?

For your first point, embrace the name of science fiction instead of hoping to improve your sales by avoiding the genre. Unreal element? Can it be extrapolated from the current state of science or at least dropped into the cracks? If not, it's not science fiction. Ghost stories? Possibly fantasy, possibly horror/gothic. As for inventing a drug and building a story around it? Science fiction has been there and done that. See The Stone That Never Came Down by John Brunner for what I consider a well done example.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Catlady

How broad should the categories be? After all, every work of fiction is invented, so is it all therefore fantasy?

To me, fantasy needs to involve unreal elements (magic, supernatural, etc.). Stories that lack those elements are not, IMHO, a fantasy.

Otherwise genres are as as broad as you want them to be. Personally, I tend to classify books into two genres. Books I will read and books that are to be thrown with great force. KISS.

One example of the issues I have with people who insist on putting books into genres is how do I classify books such as Dead Reckoning by Mercedes Lackey and Rosemary Edghill? A western with zombies? Three main characters drawing from 3 different backgrounds (the ancient girl dressed as boy hunting her brother trope, the steampunk genius inventor whose people skills are best expressed in negative numbers and the wise man raised by aboriginal Americans). A decent read, BTW, especially for the younger reader but neither authors' best work. Is it a western? Zombie apocalypse? Steampunk? Is zombie steampunk western a genre yet?

ZodWallop · 01-25-2018, 01:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Catlady

Is any book set in a future time, or with an unreal element, automatically science fiction? I wouldn't say so. What about ghost stories? Are they to be classified science fiction (or fantasy) because they feature something unreal? If an author in a thriller invents, say, a drug with certain properties and builds the story around it, does it become science fiction?

How broad should the categories be? After all, every work of fiction is invented, so is it all therefore fantasy?

I would say any book set in a future time is science fiction. An unreal element? It depends. Ghost stories would typically be horror stories to me.

When I think of what genre a book falls into, it often depends on the authors intent and what they chose to emphasize. Firefox or the Hunt For Red October are books about imaginary weaponry using non-existent technology. but the books are clearly thrillers.

I don't understand why 1984 wouldn't be science fiction except for inherent snobbishness that calling it science fiction somehow makes it lesser.

Even though I'm making all these distinctions, I'm not too fussed about genres. But they are important in that they highlight certain elements and inform a potential reader on what might be included within the story.

ZodWallop · 01-25-2018, 01:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DNSB

Is zombie steampunk western a genre yet?

Yes, it is called Weird West

4691mls · 01-25-2018, 02:02 PM

If I am looking at book descriptions on a store or library website, I want the book to be tagged for as many possible genres as apply. If it's a book that combines of mystery, romance, paranormal, horror, whatever, tag it with all of them. Then a potential reader can rule it out if they don't like one of those genres.

I prefer books set in the real world, so if a book has any elements of paranormal/fantasy/etc. I want it to be tagged as such so I can avoid it. (Not that I think there's anything wrong with such books, they just aren't my cup of tea.)

For example, I once checked out an Overdrive book that was described as a mystery featuring a police detective and was tagged as mystery, and I was really frustrated when it turned out that the killer was some ancient supernatural entity. The book really should have had a tag to indicate paranormal or horror or some such thing, not just a mystery tag.

I expect JSWolf has been similarly burned by books that should have had a romance tag, hence his frustration with search results.

JSWolf · 01-25-2018, 02:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DNSB

To me, fantasy needs to involve unreal elements (magic, supernatural, etc.). Stories that lack those elements are not, IMHO, a fantasy.

Be careful there. You could be treading in to horror territory.

JSWolf · 01-25-2018, 02:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4691mls

I expect JSWolf has been similarly burned by books that should have had a romance tag, hence his frustration with search results.

I've been lucky and I've not accidentally read romance disguised as some other book type. But when I do search for fantasy, I don't want to see those romance books trying to hide as a fantasy book. The cover helps a lot to weed those sorts of books out. But sometimes, there can be too many of them and they get in the way. Paranormal romance needs to be done away with.

The type that can be really annoying are the ones That are described mostly like a real book (i.e., thriller) and it's actually a romance under the cover.

While we are dumping paranormal romance, we can also lump in the sparkly vampires (i.e., Twilight) as they too can go.

01-25-2018, 05:38 AM	#196
JSWolf Resident Curmudgeon Posts: 79,796 Karma: 146391129 Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Roslindale, Massachusetts Device: Kobo Libra 2, Kobo Aura H2O, PRS-650, PRS-T1, nook STR, PW3	[QUOTE=jj2me;3646533]If the covers don't reveal romances (and that includes having vines and flowers sprouting from the cover's bottom), there are plenty of keywords found in titles that generally indicate a romance, like what's below in the spoiler (because so many just flowed out of my head and I don't want to clutter the thread with a long list): Spoiler: Magnolia Mistress Sister Temptress Precious Friend/Friendship Mysterious Affair Bride Fire Summer Heart Love Kiss Surrender Wicked Desire Devil Pride Bride Christmas Ball Mountain Lighthouse Island Sea/Seaside Point Ridge Lake Cottage River Brook Stream Sunrise/Sunset Heiress/Countess/Duchess/Princess/[any-upper-status-"ess" (but usually not waitress] Cowboy Duke It's possible to come up with books that those words that are not romances. So I don't see how a list of words can differentiate between romance and not.

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01-25-2018, 02:02 PM	#208
4691mls Wizard Posts: 2,776 Karma: 30081762 Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: US Device: ALL DEVICES ARE STOCK: Kobo Clara, Tolino Shine 2, Sony PRS-T3, T1	If I am looking at book descriptions on a store or library website, I want the book to be tagged for as many possible genres as apply. If it's a book that combines of mystery, romance, paranormal, horror, whatever, tag it with all of them. Then a potential reader can rule it out if they don't like one of those genres. I prefer books set in the real world, so if a book has any elements of paranormal/fantasy/etc. I want it to be tagged as such so I can avoid it. (Not that I think there's anything wrong with such books, they just aren't my cup of tea.) For example, I once checked out an Overdrive book that was described as a mystery featuring a police detective and was tagged as mystery, and I was really frustrated when it turned out that the killer was some ancient supernatural entity. The book really should have had a tag to indicate paranormal or horror or some such thing, not just a mystery tag. I expect JSWolf has been similarly burned by books that should have had a romance tag, hence his frustration with search results.