Female lead characters

[frahse]

Originally Posted by frahse

I think more important than sex is attitude and the role played.

For example, I have always enjoyed Robin Wright (used to be Penn). She was great in a typical female role in "Message in a Bottle" but she is galvanizing in the new Blade Runner movie where she is the top cop and says "there is an order ... that's what we do here: keep order"

She had me at "there is an order."

I just saw where Robin Wright has assumed the lead in the "House of Cards" series.

I can hear it now "The House will come to order..."

[bob_obo]

I used to know a (real, not imaginary) female firefighter, whose hobbies included boxing, sky diving and mountaineering.

There's nothing wrong with characters who are outside of the social norms, as there are real people who are outside of them - they're the interesting people. The problem with the kick-ass female protagonist tends to be that she tends to be horribly written, as a one dimensional fetish in high heels and leather pants, or as a insipid Mary Sue wish fulfillment.

In conclusion, I like characters that are well written.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by Amiieey

Gender roles are silly and in reality, that line of thinking should be avoided. It leads to silly things like toxic masculinity and gender stereotypes. Women and men don't have to act a certain way in stories. They can act any way they like so long as the story is believable and good.

But denying that men and women do behave differently is equally silly, and if those behavioural differences are not accurately portrayed in books set in contemporary society, the book will not come across as believable.

One very simple example: groups of men and women have conversations in completely different ways. I have often observed, while having coffee in the canteen at work, that when a group of women is sitting together chatting, they will generally all talk (and - I assume - all listen) simultaneously. When a group of men is sitting together it's completely different; one at a time talks, and the others listen.

I have not the slightest doubt that such patterns of behaviour are learned in childhood, and are not the product of biological differences between men and women, but they are nonetheless very real, and an author offering a realistic portrayal of (for example) social situations needs to get them right.

[MikeB1972]

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

What on earth does "responding in a womanly way" even mean?

Complaining?

I'll get me coat

[MikeB1972]

Originally Posted by barryem

Drat! Why'd you have to wait till I was 77 to tell me!

Barry

Don't believe them, they are an opaque, mysterious separate species.

They're only telling you they aren't to confuse you

[Amiieey]

Originally Posted by HarryT

But denying that men and women do behave differently is equally silly, and if those behavioural differences are not accurately portrayed in books set in contemporary society, the book will not come across as believable.

One very simple example: groups of men and women have conversations in completely different ways. I have often observed, while having coffee in the canteen at work, that when a group of women is sitting together chatting, they will generally all talk (and - I assume - all listen) simultaneously. When a group of men is sitting together it's completely different; one at a time talks, and the others listen.

I have not the slightest doubt that such patterns of behaviour are learned in childhood, and are not the product of biological differences between men and women, but they are nonetheless very real, and an author offering a realistic portrayal of (for example) social situations needs to get them right.

Well yeah, there are definitely differences between men and women, and there is no denying that. But that wasn't what I was talking about. My point is that there should be nothing wrong with male and female characters who do not fit the typical roles within fiction. These usual types get tiring in stories.

Just tired of people who believe - esp. in sci-fi or fantasy - that men must be masculine to a certain extent and have certain traits all the time otherwise they will be viewed as weak and effeminate, and unsuitable as a hero within a story. That men need to be manly all the time in order to win battles and be a hero, etc. They don't need to be effeminate. Not what I'm asking for. But why all the negativity if they lose or don't want to battle? I find that in sci-fi/fantasy there's a lot of these powerful heroes who have these traits. Alternatively, it would be very interesting to see more female heroes, but the "kick-ass" female trope might be tiring. It's sort of the right step but not quite because it became cliche way too fast.

In contemporary fiction, I'm not asking for men to be feminine or women to be masculine, I'm not asking for gender reversals. I'm just wanting these molds and stereotypes to be broken or played around with. What about guys who focus on different interests that aren't typically portrayed in stories? Same for women? These examples are what I mean. And this is where people are missing the point of my post.

But hey, maybe this is what makes up the story so who am I to complain? And I know I will get people saying that not all stories conform to these tropes, and that's true. But it'd be interesting if we could get even MORE of a push away from it.

I dunno. I do read a different genre of fiction so I may have a biased viewpoint. However, my genre is based in modern society and follows the social system/etiquette of real life. No bending of the rules because a lot are based on real experiences (but are fictionalized - so they are not autobiography or anything). So I find that there is no excuse as to why we can't shift away from these tropes that are in fiction. It's pretty believable to me. It always feels more interesting when characters have views and interests that break the norm. I don't need them to be breaking the norm on purpose and doing things that are "edgy", like being "kick-ass". This comes across as cringy. I just want something different.

But in the end, regardless, if it's a good story with good characters, I'll read it. A story is a metaphor for life... it is not meant to be a mirror of it.

[pwalker8]

Like others in this thread, I don't really care much about the gender of the main character, or the gender of the writer. I've enjoyed books with female leads, male leads, books written by males with female leads and books written by females with male leads. For me it comes down to a well told story where the characters are true to the basic framework.

[issybird]

Originally Posted by HarryT

One very simple example: groups of men and women have conversations in completely different ways. I have often observed, while having coffee in the canteen at work, that when a group of women is sitting together chatting, they will generally all talk (and - I assume - all listen) simultaneously. When a group of men is sitting together it's completely different; one at a time talks, and the others listen.

A long time ago now, I moved from New York City to California and I became aware, after a while, that I seemed to be interrupting people a lot. This embarrassed me, of course, and I started to pay attention to my timing. Shortly thereafter, I read an article in the NY Times on geographic differences in conversation, which said that in New York, it was courteous to interrupt people. You were signaling that you were engaged, that you were interested in what the person said and conversations would proceed in this manner. Clearly I had taken my New York ways to an environment where that did not hold and I only became aware of it because instead of furthering a conversation, I was being signaled, presumably by a slight halt in the talk, that my manner was unacceptable. Phew! I wasn't quite the innate bumpkin I had started to think, I just hadn't acclimated yet.

[HarryT]

Interesting - thanks for sharing that!

[bshar489]

Originally Posted by GlenBarrington

I don't have a preference, but I think there is a trend to "kick ass" female leading characters in 'space Opera' SF right now. But I really dislike where the character is just a guy in drag and with a feminine name.

I want to see the character trying to reconcile her 'kick ass' heroics with the day to day realities of being a woman and responding in a womanly way. The character doesn't have to be a traditional female, but the universe the author creates has to allow room for her to logically exist as a woman. I give points if the author tries, plus extra points for being believable.

I hadn't really thought about it, but most of the time the lead character in the books I read is male. But right now I'm reading "Daughters of the Night Sky" an historical fiction novel about female Russian pilots in WW2. I'm not far into it yet but so far I'm really enjoying it. What you say about trying to balance heroics with the realities of being a woman is done well in this book, at least as far as I've read so far. It's a Kindle First book [forgot what they call it now] this month.

Bergette

[DiapDealer]

Originally Posted by bshar489

What you say about trying to balance heroics with the realities of being a woman is done well in this book, at least as far as I've read so far.

I'm still honestly confused by what is meant by things like this. I don't think I've ever heard anybody mention anything like "balance heroics with the realities of being a man" before. So what exactly are these "realities" that must be so carefully balanced with heroics when the leads are female that aren't as important when the leads are male (or are already perceived as being inherently in balance)?

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

I'm still honestly confused by what is meant by things like this. I don't think I've ever heard anybody mention anything like "balance heroics with the realities of being a man" before. So what exactly are these "realities" that must be so carefully balanced with heroics when the leads are female that aren't as important when the leads are male (or are already perceived as being inherently in balance)?

For many, many years the BBC's chief war correspondent was a wonderful woman called Kate Adie. Whenever there was any trouble spot in the world, Kate would be there, reporting from it for the BBC. When she finally retired, a few years ago, she was interviewed, and one of the questions she was asked was what the most difficult thing was about being a female war correspondent. She replied "lack of decent toilets".

[DiapDealer]

Originally Posted by HarryT

For many, many years the BBC's chief war correspondent was a wonderful woman called Kate Adie. Whenever there was any trouble spot in the world, Kate would be there, reporting from it for the BBC. When she finally retired, a few years ago, she was interviewed, and one of the questions she was asked was what the most difficult thing was about being a female war correspondent. She replied "lack of decent toilets".

I assume you're trying to say that's a uniquely feminine response/reaction?

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

I assume you're trying to say that's a uniquely feminine response/reaction?

No, not that it's a "uniquely feminine response", but that it's an issue that affects women that fiction tends to overlook.

[bshar489]

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

I'm still honestly confused by what is meant by things like this. I don't think I've ever heard anybody mention anything like "balance heroics with the realities of being a man" before. So what exactly are these "realities" that must be so carefully balanced with heroics when the leads are female that aren't as important when the leads are male (or are already perceived as being inherently in balance)?

What I meant, at least as it pertains to the book I'm reading, is that while the woman is just as good, if not better, in her training as a man, the reality is that because she is a woman and only for that reason she is treated as being inferior. So while she wants and deserves equal respect for the job she is doing she must deal with "the realities of being a woman". At least, that's my take on it

Bergette