EU Piracy Report

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

Once again: don't be confused as to what I find immoral about geo-restriction circumvention. It is the lying component of "traveling" that I find immoral. Not the thwarting of geo-restriction itself. And I find the attempt to justify the practice to be unconvincing and pointless. For that matter, I hold no notion that I am entitled to remove DRM, nor have I attempted to convince myself that I am justified in doing so.

Lying for personal gain is one of the few things I can think that is not morally ambiguous. So yes, I think knowingly doing so is unequivocally immoral. Opinion doesn't enter into it.

Question, do you remove DRM? Is it legal where you do it? If the answer is you do remove DRM and it is not legal, then why is it an issue then to buy an eBook from another country? The thing is, the author gets paid. Now we could not get past geo-restriction and go out on the net and try to find the eBook and the author then gets nothing because if it's found or not, the author isn't getting a sale.

[pwalker8]

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

How does one do that without stripping the drm and/or creating/sending a pirated copy?

I have multiple kindles, one of which is associated with that account. That's how I buy ebooks and audiobooks for my niece and nephew, each have their own kindles, associate with the account I created for them.

[pwalker8]

Originally Posted by HarryT

I haven't personally tried it, but I can see no reason why it wouldn't work. The book becomes DRM-locked to a particular account when the ACSM file is loaded into ADE, not at the time that the book is bought.



I agree that that is indeed the usual practice described here.

I think that y'all need to read the T&C for Amazon. You are making some assumptions about what is actually in the T&C. It is entirely possible to buy an ebook in the UK for use in the US without violating the T&C or lying.

[DiapDealer]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

Question, do you remove DRM?

Yes

Originally Posted by JSWolf

Is it legal where you do it?

Unknown.

Originally Posted by JSWolf

If the answer is you do remove DRM and it is not legal, then why is it an issue then to buy an eBook from another country?

My answers didn't quite meet your requirements, but I'll answer the question anyway. It's an issue with me personally because I was not required to lie to obtain the ebook in question; I did not promise I wouldn't remove the DRM from the ebook; and the question of whether or not DRM removal for personal use is illegal in my jurisdiction is gray enough for my tastes. Plus, as I mentioned, I'm not trying to convince anyone that my decision to remove DRM is justified. I'm not claiming to be on the side of the angels.

Originally Posted by JSWolf

The thing is, the author gets paid. Now we could not get past geo-restriction and go out on the net and try to find the eBook and the author then gets nothing because if it's found or not, the author isn't getting a sale.

Irrelevant. You're once again pushing the false narrative that the only two choices available are "traveling" or piracy.

[DiapDealer]

Originally Posted by pwalker8

I have multiple kindles, one of which is associated with that account. That's how I buy ebooks and audiobooks for my niece and nephew, each have their own kindles, associate with the account I created for them.

And you're able to thwart geo-restrictions that way? You've sent a Kindle to someone in another country to buy ebooks for you?

[pwalker8]

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

And you're able to thwart geo-restrictions that way? You've sent a Kindle to someone in another country to buy ebooks for you?

No, she associates my kindle with the account that she created. The address associated with the account is the address that the account creator resides at. There is nothing that says that the kindle has to belong to that person, or someone related to that person. The only restriction is the number of kindles that can be associated with that account. There are no lies involved.

[Fbone]

Originally Posted by HarryT

The friend buys the ePub book and receives the ACSM file, which he then forwards to you. You load the ACSM file into your copy of ADE and thus get the DRM-protected book. No DRM stripping, and your friend has never been in possession of the eBook.

I just tested this and the friend still has access to the ebook. One way to avoid redistribution/piracy would be for your friend to buy as a gift.

[SteveEisenberg]

Originally Posted by pwalker8

No, she associates my kindle with the account that she created. The address associated with the account is the address that the account creator resides at.

Now I got through my thick head what to do. I agree it is not a lie. We can ask our son who lives in Germany to buy for us.

However, if I do understand correctly, I could not do this on an eInk Kindle with what is, to me, an essential device application, the New York Times Latest News Blog, or on our Fire that has the Washington Post at what, I think, is less that the Germany price. Plus there might be a problem with Overdrive/Kindle format being US-only. So, instead I would have to use a spare, of which my wife and I have several awaiting the day when one of our Kindle Keyboards die. (EDITED: Or, I guess we just move the registration of the Kindle right back to the US after the purchase in Germany. Right? Or, simpler, and as noted in the post immediately above, ask our son to gift us the book.)

Also, and this is good, the first two books that came to mind as available in Europe, but not the US, and that I had on my mental to-read list due to being written by master historian Saul David, turn out to now be available in the U.S. -- and for 99 cents each:

After Dunkirk

Mutiny at Salerno, 1943: An Injustice Exposed

Since US libraries don't have those, I guess Bozos just sold two more eBooks. However, a third Saul David title I'd try -- Prince of Pleasure: The Prince of Wales and the Making of the Regency -- does have geo-restriction issues. The eBook is unavailable at amazon.com, is a highly reasonable £0.99 at amazon.co.uk, and is a, only by comparison, less highly reasonable EUR 3,99 at amazon.de. So I'll wait on that last one.

I guess it's another topic and totally the wrong thread, but what's the point of Brexit if there already are separate book markets in Europe? Or can my son in Germany freely use the British Amazon site? This probably has been answered to death in past threads, but I'm paying better attention now

[DNSB]

Originally Posted by Apache

I do not see how this violates the author's moral rights if I am giving the book to a friend as a gift. There isn't any difference between this or buying a book and having it sent directly to said friend.
Apache

The problem is that most ebook licenses prohibit a transfer of ownership unlike physical books where the original purchaser is allowed to do what they want after that first purchase.

One example I have around from Amazon/Kindle reads: "Unless specifically indicated otherwise, you may not sell, rent, lease, distribute, broadcast, sublicense or otherwise assign any rights to the Digital Content or any portion of it to any third party, and you may not remove any proprietary notices or labels on the Digital Content."

Another example is: "Without express written consent, you may not assign your rights and obligations under this agreement, or redistribute, encumber, sell, rent, lease, gift, sublicense, or otherwise transfer your rights to the ebook."

After one friend passed away, his family attempted to obtain that consent so his wife could continue to legally read and study using their joint library. Their son spent hours jumping through the hoops to supply the requested proof of death only to get the response was that they could not grant permission. According to one legal opinion, denying consent was iffy since British Columbia is a community property province so legally when he purchased the ebooks, the purchase belonged equally to both spouses unless evidence existed proving the contrary.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by DNSB

The problem is that most ebook licenses prohibit a transfer of ownership unlike physical books where the original purchaser is allowed to do what they want after that first purchase.

That's a contractual issue, though, and has nothing whatsoever to do with moral rights. Moral rights are, to quote Wikipedia:

[The] rights of creators of copyrighted works generally recognized in civil law jurisdictions and, to a lesser extent, in some common law jurisdictions. They include the right of attribution, the right to have a work published anonymously or pseudonymously, and the right to the integrity of the work. The preserving of the integrity of the work allows the author to object to alteration, distortion, or mutilation of the work that is "prejudicial to the author's honor or reputation". Anything else that may detract from the artist's relationship with the work even after it leaves the artist's possession or ownership may bring these moral rights into play. Moral rights are distinct from any economic rights tied to copyrights. Even if an artist has assigned his or her copyright rights to a work to a third party, he or she still maintains the moral rights to the work.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_rights

[issybird]

Originally Posted by SteveEisenberg

However, a third Saul David title I'd try -- Prince of Pleasure: The Prince of Wales and the Making of the Regency -- does have geo-restriction issues. The eBook is unavailable at amazon.com, is a highly reasonable £0.99 at amazon.co.uk, and is a, only by comparison, less highly reasonable EUR 3,99 at amazon.de. So I'll wait on that last one.

Huh. I knew I'd read this, so I took a look and it's available for US Kindle for only 99¢ to buy or free to read at KU. Here:

https://smile.amazon.com/Prince-Plea...1873198&sr=1-8

[Greg Anos]

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

If you want to consider changing terms and extending formerly agreed upon term lengths to be lying, then that is certainly your right. I personally think that's a bit of a stretch, myself. There's a clear difference, in my opinion, between lobbying for changed terms and telling someone you live in a country that you don't. But that's neither here nor there with regard to this topic. Even if you believe extending copyright was a lie for personal gain, it still wouldn't be justification for violating copyright. Nor would it lend any credence to the notion that lying to thwart geo-restrictions is somehow justified.

I consider extending copyright every bit as much a violation of copyright as making an pirate copy. The only difference is who benefits.

[DiapDealer]

Originally Posted by Ralph Sir Edward

I consider extending copyright every bit as much a violation of copyright as making an pirate copy. The only difference is who benefits.

Fine. You're free to do so. But I still fail to see its relevance to the topic of EU Piracy in general, or the current focus on geo-restrictions and the moral/legal implications of its circumvention.

[shalym]

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

Yes

Unknown.

My answers didn't quite meet your requirements, but I'll answer the question anyway. It's an issue with me personally because I was not required to lie to obtain the ebook in question; I did not promise I wouldn't remove the DRM from the ebook; and the question of whether or not DRM removal for personal use is illegal in my jurisdiction is gray enough for my tastes. Plus, as I mentioned, I'm not trying to convince anyone that my decision to remove DRM is justified. I'm not claiming to be on the side of the angels.

Irrelevant. You're once again pushing the false narrative that the only two choices available are "traveling" or piracy.

Actually, if you buy books from Amazon or Google you do promise that you won't remove the DRM from the ebook. I'm not sure about other stores, I haven't looked closely at their terms of use yet.

Shari

[DiapDealer]

Originally Posted by shalym

Actually, if you buy books from Amazon or Google you do promise that you won't remove the DRM from the ebook. I'm not sure about other stores, I haven't looked closely at their terms of use yet.

Shari

Please quote the section of the Amazon's ToS that clearly mentions DRM and its explicit request that I not remove it.