Moral and Ethical Norms Regarding Book Sharing

[ZodWallop]

My personal view on books sharing: I have a Kobo. My better half has a Nook. I buy all our ebooks from Amazon and sideload. I would have no issue sideloading the same books on to the Nook if our reading tastes were similar.

I could justify it by mentioning that our Amazon accounts are linked and I believe the books would show up in both anyway. But realistically I would feel the same regardless.

I wouldn't share my ebooks with my uncle, even though our reading tastes are more similar.

[Philippe D.]

Originally Posted by nabsltd

EPUBs are so simple that it's impossible to "watermark" them in a way that can't be removed trivially. I'm sure the threat does keep honest people honest, but it does nothing to keep dishonest people from sharing the book after removing the watermark. In that way, it's just like DRM.

In the final effect, yes, watermarking is just like DRM. But it saves honest users the trouble.

Let's rephrase this: watermarking saves the honest users the trouble, and is just as efficient at protecting the copyright holders' interests.

Plus, it would save DiapDealer the trouble of writing honest folk between quotation marks, so subtly insinuating that they're nothing of the sort. Edit: as shown in the discussion below, the "insinuation" was only in my mind. Sorry about that.

These days it's full of commercial ebooks liberated with the exact same tools that "honest folk" use to back up their purchases.

[MikeB1972]

Originally Posted by Philippe D.

In the final effect, yes, watermarking is just like DRM. But it saves honest users the trouble.

Let's rephrase this: watermarking saves the honest users the trouble, and is just as efficient at protecting the copyright holders' interests.

Plus, it would save DiapDealer the trouble of writing honest folk between quotation marks, so subtly insinuating that they're nothing of the sort.

I think the quote marks were there because it was a, err, quote upthread, rather than an insinuation.

[DiapDealer]

The quotes were to accentuate the commonly-held misconception around here that DRM-removal of purchases is somehow more inherently "honest" than removing DRM from library books. That the former causes no harm while the latter can cause nothing BUT harm.There are, of course, honest and dishonest people on both sides of the equation. It just personally bugs me that people are willing to see only the good in people who remove DRM from their purchases, but can only see the bad in those who remove DRM from library books. As mentioned previously; pirate sites are full of books liberated the seemingly-inherent "honest" way.

[Philippe D.]

Okay, sorry for the misunderstanding then. (I won't edit it out of my message because it would only cause more confusion)

[DiapDealer]

No problem. I probably should have said "liberated the 'honest way'" as opposed to "by honest folk" to begin with.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by Philippe D.

In the final effect, yes, watermarking is just like DRM. But it saves honest users the trouble.

Watermarking is not merely "just like DRM"; watermarking is DRM. The term "DRM" refers to any method of protecting digital rights, not only to encryption.

[ottdmk]

Originally Posted by issybird

The frustrating aspect of time limits on OverDrive books is in comparison to those on paperbooks from the real (as opposed to virtual, calm down, folks) library. With paperbooks, libraries have policies and sanctions in place for overdue books which generally consist of a fine, letting the borrower put a price on his willingness to over the time limit. The repo man isn't going to show up at the door. But with OverDrive books, of course, the book just disappears - or rather, can no longer be accessed.

The slipperiest slope of all is when we try to force comparisons between pbooks and ebooks, as with this conversation!

I actually find the OverDrive way a feature, not a bug. I almost always finish a library book within three weeks, but I'm horrible for forgetting to actually get in the car and take the book back to the library. With OverDrive I don't have to.

[nabsltd]

Originally Posted by HarryT

Watermarking is not merely "just like DRM"; watermarking is DRM. The term "DRM" refers to any method of protecting digital rights, not only to encryption.

Watermarking is not DRM, but rather a tool used as part of a DRM scheme, much like encryption isn't DRM, but is a tool. In particular, neither have the "M" part of DRM (management), but instead that has to be controlled by another part of the toolset.

Here's another take on watermarks.

[ZodWallop]

Originally Posted by nabsltd

Watermarking is not DRM, but rather a tool used as part of a DRM scheme...

Pointing out that watermarking and other forms of 'social DRM' is not DRM feels tiresome and nitpicky.

Of course you are correct, technically. But everyone understands what is meant. What does stopping the conversation to point out a technical detail add to the discussion?

I used to grouse about people saying 'ATM machine' or 'PIN number', but don't any longer.

[Cinisajoy]

Originally Posted by ZodWallop

Pointing out that watermarking and other forms of 'social DRM' is not DRM feels tiresome and nitpicky.

Of course you are correct, technically. But everyone understands what is meant. What does stopping the conversation to point out a technical detail add to the discussion?

I used to grouse about people saying 'ATM machine' or 'PIN number', but don't any longer.

Technically, it is DRM. It fits all three. It is digital, it is for the rights of the author and it is for managing those rights.

So yes a watermark is DRM in its simplest form.

Sorry but HarryT is 100% correct.

[ZodWallop]

Originally Posted by Cinisajoy

Technically, it is DRM...

See? This is what I was hoping to avoid.

(Don't mean to attack Cin. Just hoping to avoid an additional 2 pages of 'yes it is!' 'no it isn't!')

[Catlady]

Originally Posted by ZodWallop

I used to grouse about people saying 'ATM machine' or 'PIN number', but don't any longer.

I do, and expect I always will.

[Panchax]

I see noone on here is a believer in the holy public domain.
My first foray into ebooks was from borrowing a spare ereader from a roommate who was a pirate. He gave me a chunk of his collection, and I think I still have it somewhere.
I no longer read pirated books, for reasons already discussed on this thread. However, if I bought a book from Amazon, there is no way I would leave the DRM on it. Besides the fact that I use a nook, Amazon has a history of reclaiming books they have already sold. Yes, it happens rarely, but I have read their TOS, and even if that was a few years ago, it makes me feel like they are evil.
I will remove the DRM from a free book if I want to give it to someone, I can't understand why they DRM them anyway.
I have never lent an ebook to anyone, although I have traded ereaders for a week, or even an ereader for a book for a while. I do not see anything wrong with that.
I personally dislike the fact that I cannot lend ebooks easily like pbooks morally. I actually read this thread hoping someone would have a solution to that, but noone did.

[Cinisajoy]

Originally Posted by Panchax

I see noone on here is a believer in the holy public domain.
My first foray into ebooks was from borrowing a spare ereader from a roommate who was a pirate. He gave me a chunk of his collection, and I think I still have it somewhere.
I no longer read pirated books, for reasons already discussed on this thread. However, if I bought a book from Amazon, there is no way I would leave the DRM on it. Besides the fact that I use a nook, Amazon has a history of reclaiming books they have already sold. Yes, it happens rarely, but I have read their TOS, and even if that was a few years ago, it makes me feel like they are evil.
I will remove the DRM from a free book if I want to give it to someone, I can't understand why they DRM them anyway.
I have never lent an ebook to anyone, although I have traded ereaders for a week, or even an ereader for a book for a while. I do not see anything wrong with that.
I personally dislike the fact that I cannot lend ebooks easily like pbooks morally. I actually read this thread hoping someone would have a solution to that, but noone did.

Was it an actual free book or on sale for free?
Just because you got it free from Amazon does not make it a free book.
What you paid doesn't matter.
I have a free copy of the Da Vinci Code that I got on Amazon. It even has an excerpt from Inferno. Turns out it was "on sale" to promote the new book.