The Vent and Rant Thread

[Cinisajoy]

Originally Posted by Rumpelteazer

You're right. Luckily I slept better the last two nights than I have during the last couple of weeks.

Despite the fact that it'll cost him money and he hasn't got much chance to win I am afraid he'll appeal. Just the thought of going through everything again. This court case took three and a half years for it to finish. I'm not sure I can take another three and a half years.

However, I do realize it's my uncle who should be afraid. Remember the documents he only wanted to share if we paid €1500? The solicitor dealing with my grandmother's estate convinced him to share at least some of it. We got a tiny fraction and we found out a couple of things. We already knew he had let my grandmother pay for his window insurance, we also found out she paid for his and his partner's funeral insurance and he used my grandmother's bank account to buy credits for a sex dating website. He had promised more documents when he returned from his vacation, he returned over month ago and we haven't got it yet. We did send a letter to the judge overseeing his guardianship of his mother, she wanted us to sign a statement basically saying he did everything right. We won't, and explained why.

We are going to try to get all the documents and see if he committed more fraud and we will try to get all the money back. Considering the judge has also decided that everyone should pay their own legal costs (he used my grandmother's money to pay for a court case where we had summoned him personally) the money he owes the heirs has risen to at least €30000.



No problem, it's a complicated mess. When everything is settled I'm going to insist my parents make a very clear will. I don't care what's in it, I don't necessarily want to know but it needs to be very clear.

The exercises seem to help. So far I've also been able to hold of the muscle ache that always comes when my anxiety attack lasts long or is bad.

Thanks for the reminder that I need to remind my parents about a will.

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by Rumpelteazer

You're right. Luckily I slept better the last two nights than I have during the last couple of weeks.

EXCELLENT. That's good to hear. Of course, the no-vacuuming probably helps. ;-)

Despite the fact that it'll cost him money and he hasn't got much chance to win I am afraid he'll appeal. Just the thought of going through everything again. This court case took three and a half years for it to finish. I'm not sure I can take another three and a half years.

However, I do realize it's my uncle who should be afraid. Remember the documents he only wanted to share if we paid €1500? The solicitor dealing with my grandmother's estate convinced him to share at least some of it. We got a tiny fraction and we found out a couple of things. We already knew he had let my grandmother pay for his window insurance, we also found out she paid for his and his partner's funeral insurance and he used my grandmother's bank account to buy credits for a sex dating website. He had promised more documents when he returned from his vacation, he returned over month ago and we haven't got it yet. We did send a letter to the judge overseeing his guardianship of his mother, she wanted us to sign a statement basically saying he did everything right. We won't, and explained why.

We are going to try to get all the documents and see if he committed more fraud and we will try to get all the money back. Considering the judge has also decided that everyone should pay their own legal costs (he used my grandmother's money to pay for a court case where we had summoned him personally) the money he owes the heirs has risen to at least €30000.

The dating sex site is, forgive me, hilarious. Hard to think of a BETTER example of wastrel spending whilst being his mother's guardian. He could probably argue that she said to him, "oh, [Uncle], go ahead and use my funds to pay for your insurance," but somehow, I can't see her telling him to use her money for a Tinder site, ya know? ;-)

No problem, it's a complicated mess. When everything is settled I'm going to insist my parents make a very clear will. I don't care what's in it, I don't necessarily want to know but it needs to be very clear.

YES, this. I went through this the last year of my mother's life, thank GOD. It was a massive hassle, for a variety of reasons I won't discuss. It took us months to get things rewritten and addressed, to handle things that had changed over the passage of time, and to try to get over my mother's intense desire to dead-hand everything. We only finally got them done, witnessed and notarized a mere few weeks, really, before she abruptly died. (About...10 weeks, really, but in the cosmic scope of things....) Not only that, but we redid my grandmother's, too--that would have been bad, if it had been unchanged. Wills matter, ESPECIALLY when there are numerous possible devisees or heirs, and unclear intentions.

If you can't afford legal counsel, to go LegalZoom or some other site, get a simple will, and make your intentions dead clear. That's it.


Hitch

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by FizzyWater

That is so stupid to almost seem intentional. Like they were *trying* to be witty about ebooks and say "what's a paperback" to imply printed books are out of date. Yikes.

Honestly, at first, that's what I thought, some hipster trying to be cute, right? Nooooooooooooooooo. Dream on! It's a real, live, wanna-be author.

Yupperdoodle, folks. That's a person that wants you to PAY for his scribbles.

Sheesh.

Hitch

[Rumpelteazer]

Originally Posted by Hitch

EXCELLENT. That's good to hear. Of course, the no-vacuuming probably helps. ;-)

She always did that on Saturday/Sunday. However, I can sleep longer since I'm not woken up by slamming door, alarms going off when she's in the shower and hair dryers.

Originally Posted by Hitch

The dating sex site is, forgive me, hilarious. Hard to think of a BETTER example of wastrel spending whilst being his mother's guardian. He could probably argue that she said to him, "oh, [Uncle], go ahead and use my funds to pay for your insurance," but somehow, I can't see her telling him to use her money for a Tinder site, ya know? ;-)

Before he was the guardian my grandmother had dementia to a degree that she wasn't able to make those types of decisions. He blames the funeral insurance on my father. It was a mistake and he was so distracted by my father's behavior (the court cases) that he hadn't noticed. Yeah, right.

It's funny how we found out about he sex sites. We noticed on the bank papers we did get that my uncle often paid €50 for something. He did that every day for a week and then for a while no payments and then again a bunch of €50 payments. We asked what that was, he didn't want to say, only said that that was part of his compensation for his guardianship. We jokingly guessed he used it to pay for sex websites, but it turned out to be even worse. We googled the payment platform he used and it's exclusively used for sex dating sites. We're pretty certain he wanted to hide it from his partner. A compensation is allowed, but you do that monthly, every three or six months or once a year. Not in €50 increments over a week.

As a side note: my mother checked my uncle's (very) public Facebook profile earlier this week and he has liked various ladies offering their services. How stupid can you get?!

Originally Posted by Hitch

YES, this. I went through this the last year of my mother's life, thank GOD. It was a massive hassle, for a variety of reasons I won't discuss. It took us months to get things rewritten and addressed, to handle things that had changed over the passage of time, and to try to get over my mother's intense desire to dead-hand everything. We only finally got them done, witnessed and notarized a mere few weeks, really, before she abruptly died. (About...10 weeks, really, but in the cosmic scope of things....) Not only that, but we redid my grandmother's, too--that would have been bad, if it had been unchanged. Wills matter, ESPECIALLY when there are numerous possible devisees or heirs, and unclear intentions.

If you can't afford legal counsel, to go LegalZoom or some other site, get a simple will, and make your intentions dead clear. That's it.


Hitch

I'm not sure what the legal requirements are in the Netherlands for a legally recognized will. And, yes, my sister and I can get on well. However, you never know what influence any future partners or events can have on that relationship. Better get it sorted out with a crystal clear will.

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by Rumpelteazer

She always did that on Saturday/Sunday. However, I can sleep longer since I'm not woken up by slamming door, alarms going off when she's in the shower and hair dryers.

I'd have killed her. I really, really hate having my sleep disturbed by inconsiderate behavior.

Before he was the guardian my grandmother had dementia to a degree that she wasn't able to make those types of decisions. He blames the funeral insurance on my father. It was a mistake and he was so distracted by my father's behavior (the court cases) that he hadn't noticed. Yeah, right.

snort.

It's funny how we found out about he sex sites. We noticed on the bank papers we did get that my uncle often paid €50 for something. He did that every day for a week and then for a while no payments and then again a bunch of €50 payments. We asked what that was, he didn't want to say, only said that that was part of his compensation for his guardianship. We jokingly guessed he used it to pay for sex websites, but it turned out to be even worse. We googled the payment platform he used and it's exclusively used for sex dating sites. We're pretty certain he wanted to hide it from his partner. A compensation is allowed, but you do that monthly, every three or six months or once a year. Not in €50 increments over a week.

Arguably, he'd have been entitled to some compensation, and equally arguably, he could use it as he saw fit--but NOT once it was clearly established that he wasn't acting in the best interests of the decedent, and was stealing from the estate. That argument is utterly worthless.

As a side note: my mother checked my uncle's (very) public Facebook profile earlier this week and he has liked various ladies offering their services. How stupid can you get?!

He's not too smart, is he?

I'm not sure what the legal requirements are in the Netherlands for a legally recognized will. And, yes, my sister and I can get on well. However, you never know what influence any future partners or events can have on that relationship. Better get it sorted out with a crystal clear will.

I have no idea, I admit. I mean, for the Netherlands, but presumably, some sort of LegalZoom equivalent must exist, especially in a country with the sort of mindset that prevails in the ND. (You know, taking care of its citizenry, birth-to-death and all that.)

The thing is, even CLOSE family members can fall out...over money. And sometimes, a trinket, or keepsake, or memento. It's shocking, but it's commonplace. When my own brother accused me of stealing money from the estate, I shrugged that off--that was pure anthropomorphizing. He'd obtained money, well into 6 digits, through pretense, from my mother, the last year of her life. So that didn't faze me. But then, my sister called, and he'd somehow convinced her that I'd sold Mother's house, and pocketed about $80K usd.

Suffice to say, I wasn't happy about that at ALL, given that I never even paid myself any fees. Not as trustee for the family trusts, not as executrix--I never even reimbursed myself for travel expenses, which were massive. THAT about did me in. Of course, I easily proved that I hadn't...but it upset me, anyway, and given other major stresses about the estate (I was administering trusts, over people who did NOT WANT the money administered...), it was the last thing I needed. And as you can see...to this day, I remember it, and not fondly.

My sister and I have been close for decades. It was a shocking thing, but as I said--the stress of losing a loved one, PLUS the inevitable quibbles about jewelry, heirlooms or even worthless trinkets, never mind the money...get clear and unambiguous wills. it will save you untold amounts of heartbreak.

(Also, if you die intestate, in this country, anyway, your closest relatives can be SUED, a sprospective heirs of your estate, if you leave a house with a mortgage on it and not enough money to make the payments or pay off the mortgage, etc. So...wills!)

Here endeth the lecture. :-)

Hitch

[Cinisajoy]

Originally Posted by Hitch

I'd have killed her. I really, really hate having my sleep disturbed by inconsiderate behavior.



snort.



Arguably, he'd have been entitled to some compensation, and equally arguably, he could use it as he saw fit--but NOT once it was clearly established that he wasn't acting in the best interests of the decedent, and was stealing from the estate. That argument is utterly worthless.


He's not too smart, is he?




I have no idea, I admit. I mean, for the Netherlands, but presumably, some sort of LegalZoom equivalent must exist, especially in a country with the sort of mindset that prevails in the ND. (You know, taking care of its citizenry, birth-to-death and all that.)

The thing is, even CLOSE family members can fall out...over money. And sometimes, a trinket, or keepsake, or memento. It's shocking, but it's commonplace. When my own brother accused me of stealing money from the estate, I shrugged that off--that was pure anthropomorphizing. He'd obtained money, well into 6 digits, through pretense, from my mother, the last year of her life. So that didn't faze me. But then, my sister called, and he'd somehow convinced her that I'd sold Mother's house, and pocketed about $80K usd.

Suffice to say, I wasn't happy about that at ALL, given that I never even paid myself any fees. Not as trustee for the family trusts, not as executrix--I never even reimbursed myself for travel expenses, which were massive. THAT about did me in. Of course, I easily proved that I hadn't...but it upset me, anyway, and given other major stresses about the estate (I was administering trusts, over people who did NOT WANT the money administered...), it was the last thing I needed. And as you can see...to this day, I remember it, and not fondly.

My sister and I have been close for decades. It was a shocking thing, but as I said--the stress of losing a loved one, PLUS the inevitable quibbles about jewelry, heirlooms or even worthless trinkets, never mind the money...get clear and unambiguous wills. it will save you untold amounts of heartbreak.

(Also, if you die intestate, in this country, anyway, your closest relatives can be SUED, a sprospective heirs of your estate, if you leave a house with a mortgage on it and not enough money to make the payments or pay off the mortgage, etc. So...wills!)

Here endeth the lecture. :-)

Hitch

My father left some gambling debts. The bookie commented to a friend that he was going to ask me for the money. The friend told the bookie, she will either laugh at you or have you arrested since gambling is illegal.

[Rumpelteazer]

Originally Posted by Hitch

Arguably, he'd have been entitled to some compensation, and equally arguably, he could use it as he saw fit--but NOT once it was clearly established that he wasn't acting in the best interests of the decedent, and was stealing from the estate. That argument is utterly worthless.


He's not too smart, is he?

Sure he's entitled to compensation, but you don't directly use the bank account of the person you're the guardian of to pay for things, certainly not sex dating sites. That's just beyond disgusting.

Yes, he isn't smart. The worst thing is that he thinks he is. We can only imagine how he feels about us discovering his fraudulent goings on. It so stupid that he continued. For years we have been trying to get copies of the bookkeeping. He must have known that after my grandmother's death he was legally obliged to share it with the other heirs. I can only image he thought we are the ones who are stupid and wouldn't discover his actions.

Originally Posted by Hitch

Here endeth the lecture. :-)

You're preaching to the choir. My sister will probably be the executrix, she's the smart one of us two. I personally don't count on getting anything, that way it can only be a pleasant surprise.

[Hemmi]

I already know my mother has little money (has always spent most of what she has) and no assets beyond her car. She gave me the house years ago when it was paid off. I literally will get nothing when she passes except the hassle of selling her car which just might pay for a funeral.

Oh, and I'll get my brother too and the lovely hassle of dealing with Social Security to take over management of his monthly money since he's disabled and not capable of managing his money himself.

[Cinisajoy]

Originally Posted by Hemmi

I already know my mother has little money (has always spent most of what she has) and no assets beyond her car. She gave me the house years ago when it was paid off. I literally will get nothing when she passes except the hassle of selling her car which just might pay for a funeral.

Oh, and I'll get my brother too and the lovely hassle of dealing with Social Security to take over management of his monthly money since he's disabled and not capable of managing his money himself.

Luckily my father found a job 6 months with a life insurance policy before he died. He had absolutely nothing.

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by Cinisajoy

My father left some gambling debts. The bookie commented to a friend that he was going to ask me for the money. The friend told the bookie, she will either laugh at you or have you arrested since gambling is illegal.

Yeah, I just finished up paying thousands, in legal fees, to defend myself against the bank that held my brother's mortgage. He died intestate, (of course), and my sister and I are the only possible living heirs, at least, in any immediate sense. NEITHER of us wanted anything from his so-called estate, as we'd been supporting him for the last decade, right? So, we said, no, thanks; neither of us stood up to be executrix, nor adminstrator, because other than the house, there was naught to administer. Why take on the brain-damage? Given that there was no will and no assets, who'da thunk that the bank would think that WE could be held liable? Neither of us signed on the mortgage, etc.

It's positively laughable that the mortage holder came after us, given that the house is FAR from upside down. Not enough in it to entice either of us to take it over and flip it, as it's at a distance, and all that, but enough for the mortgage holder to become whole-plus. FFS, we told them over a year ago that he had passed away. It's ridiculous that it's taken them all this time, and that they're suing US, as if we're absconding with $$$ or anything else.

Urgh.

Oh, @Rumple: Sorry, I should have been clearer. I didn't mean I was lecturing you; I meant anyone who comes along later and reads the thread. Sorry! I figure you're the LAST person on this thread who needs that lecture, LOL.

Hitch

[Rumpelteazer]

Originally Posted by Hitch

Yeah, I just finished up paying thousands, in legal fees, to defend myself against the bank that held my brother's mortgage. He died intestate, (of course), and my sister and I are the only possible living heirs, at least, in any immediate sense. NEITHER of us wanted anything from his so-called estate, as we'd been supporting him for the last decade, right? So, we said, no, thanks; neither of us stood up to be executrix, nor adminstrator, because other than the house, there was naught to administer. Why take on the brain-damage? Given that there was no will and no assets, who'da thunk that the bank would think that WE could be held liable? Neither of us signed on the mortgage, etc.

It's positively laughable that the mortage holder came after us, given that the house is FAR from upside down. Not enough in it to entice either of us to take it over and flip it, as it's at a distance, and all that, but enough for the mortgage holder to become whole-plus. FFS, we told them over a year ago that he had passed away. It's ridiculous that it's taken them all this time, and that they're suing US, as if we're absconding with $$$ or anything else.

Urgh.

Oh, @Rumple: Sorry, I should have been clearer. I didn't mean I was lecturing you; I meant anyone who comes along later and reads the thread. Sorry! I figure you're the LAST person on this thread who needs that lecture, LOL.

Hitch

Oh, no I didn't mean that I thought you were lecturing me. Merely that I totally agree with what you've said. And I'm sorry for what you've been through with you're brother's estate.

Iirc, in the Netherlands there are three options when it comes to an inheritance. You can accept it, reject it or you can accept it provisionally (not sure what the right English term is). Which means you wait until the inheritance is legally dealt with, if anything unexpected arises you can still reject it. Drawback is that you can't do anything with the property of the deceased. If you take a pen of theirs you accept the inheritance with everything that comes with it. Now, my grandmother didn't have much. When she moved from her apartment to a care home all family members were asked to get the items they wanted, what was left was donated or thrown away. My grandmother had her clothes, some jewelry (not much monetary worth), some artwork (again, not much worth) and two wooden dressers/cupboards. The dressers were left at the care home, they were in the communal areas, with the understanding that if needed we could always come and get them. The rest of my grandmother's stuff, about three boxes, are stored by my aunt.

We have already agreed (without my uncle) that my aunt should get the jewelry, since they have an emotional value to her. The rest we have to see when everything is dealt with.

A couple of weeks ago I typed over my grandfather's will (we only had one, badly xeroxed copy of it) and that was clear. He even foresaw that there was a possibility that his children would disagree. After his death my grandmother made a new will, which is more vague. We are fairly sure my uncle influenced her, but can't prove it. Luckily, due to the way my grandfather's will was set up it takes precedence over my grandmother's will.

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by Rumpelteazer

Oh, no I didn't mean that I thought you were lecturing me. Merely that I totally agree with what you've said. And I'm sorry for what you've been through with you're brother's estate.

Meh. Family, right? ;-)

Iirc, in the Netherlands there are three options when it comes to an inheritance. You can accept it, reject it or you can accept it provisionally (not sure what the right English term is).

That word is exactly right. And it's similar here, see below.

Which means you wait until the inheritance is legally dealt with, if anything unexpected arises you can still reject it. Drawback is that you can't do anything with the property of the deceased. If you take a pen of theirs you accept the inheritance with everything that comes with it.

There isn't really a "Provisional" acceptance here, but, the thing about, if you take ONE thing, tag, you're it, applies here. I warned my sister that even though my brother had some sentimental items--images, and the like, detritus to anyone else, but treasured to her--not to touch ANYTHING until she had permission from the bank to take those specific items. Otherwise, yup, if you take anything that any creditor can say has monetary value, you're hosed. So, whilst "provisional" doesn't exist in law, as it does in your neck of the woods, the theory does.

Now, my grandmother didn't have much. When she moved from her apartment to a care home all family members were asked to get the items they wanted, what was left was donated or thrown away. My grandmother had her clothes, some jewelry (not much monetary worth), some artwork (again, not much worth) and two wooden dressers/cupboards. The dressers were left at the care home, they were in the communal areas, with the understanding that if needed we could always come and get them. The rest of my grandmother's stuff, about three boxes, are stored by my aunt.

Isn't it surprisingly difficult to get rid of "stuff" owned by family? Honestly, I thought I was going to have to spend WEEKS clearing out my mother's place, because my sister had to pore over every picture, every slide, every cookbook, etc., etc. I hate to sound like Cruella DeVille, (sp?) but I'm a lot less sentimental and I tossed stuff wholesale.

We have already agreed (without my uncle) that my aunt should get the jewelry, since they have an emotional value to her. The rest we have to see when everything is dealt with.

Good luck.

A couple of weeks ago I typed over my grandfather's will (we only had one, badly xeroxed copy of it) and that was clear. He even foresaw that there was a possibility that his children would disagree. After his death my grandmother made a new will, which is more vague. We are fairly sure my uncle influenced her, but can't prove it. Luckily, due to the way my grandfather's will was set up it takes precedence over my grandmother's will.

Honestly, the most important part is the "if my devisees disagree" portion. Amazing how often THAT happens. And as we already touched upon, it's often NOT the expensive things, it's sentimental things.

I'm very glad for you that in all likelihood, the worst is over, about the case.

Hitch

[Rumpelteazer]

Originally Posted by Hitch

Isn't it surprisingly difficult to get rid of "stuff" owned by family? Honestly, I thought I was going to have to spend WEEKS clearing out my mother's place, because my sister had to pore over every picture, every slide, every cookbook, etc., etc. I hate to sound like Cruella DeVille, (sp?) but I'm a lot less sentimental and I tossed stuff wholesale.

After the fire four years ago I was surprised how I felt about throwing away a lot of my stuff: a shame but oh well.

I'm not emotionally attached to many things I discovered.

Originally Posted by Hitch

I'm very glad for you that in all likelihood, the worst is over, about the case.

Hitch

We'll have to wait until mid December. My uncle has three months to appeal, and he has the annoying tendency to wait until the last possible moment to do legal things.

Feeling better each day. I've never had as much fun preparing for a vacation as now and I'm already planning my next vacation for January (my Post Holiday Season Recharge Retreat).

[CRussel]

Originally Posted by Rumpelteazer

Feeling better each day. I've never had as much fun preparing for a vacation as now and I'm already planning my next vacation for January (my Post Holiday Season Recharge Retreat).

Good. Very good. And on vacations, we have always had nearly as much fun planning them as taking them. Well, OK, maybe not _quite_ that much fun. But still, the planning was very much a part of the fun.

[Katsunami]

Originally Posted by Rumpelteazer

We'll have to wait until mid December. My uncle has three months to appeal, and he has the annoying tendency to wait until the last possible moment to do legal things.

Feeling better each day. I've never had as much fun preparing for a vacation as now and I'm already planning my next vacation for January (my Post Holiday Season Recharge Retreat).

Can't remember everything in the entire thread about this stuff... Is that man someone you call "Uncle" (in my family it's normal for kids to just call distantly related family members 'aunt' and 'uncle'), or is he your father's or mother's brother, so a 'real' uncle?

If so, and he's trying to sell a house from under your father/mother, which they use to run a business and provide for the family, it's hard for me to understand that a brother would try to do something like that. In my eyes, that's genuinely evil (and greedy).

===

Fortunately, my mother has a detailed will (drawn up last year), and my father basically has only two things: a house, and a bank account, and in his will, it's stated that they should be split up between me and my sister, with partners (if any) not getting a share, even if married in... uh...

I don't know the English word. In Dutch, it's called "gemeenschap van goederen", which means that you own everything your partner owns (including riches, debt, and inheritances). So if I inherit half my father's house, half of that would be property of my wife, if not married with marriage conditions, and my father's will prevents that.

I don't care for anything that is in my father's house. Apart from the couch, which might fetch €1000 if sold, there's nothing there of any value to me. My sister can have anything she wants.