LCD and your eyes

[Alpha o]

Most tablets can have a "night mode" It's red. It's used in astronomy to read star charts as the red light lets your dark vision adapt faster.

[AnotherCat]

Originally Posted by Alpha o

...as the red light lets your dark vision adapt faster.

There is not much point flogging that dead horse because from my own personal experience it has been regarded as in much part myth for at least several decades (see my earlier post).

Now to keep Jon happy (same name as me but he forgot the "h" ) I will say two things about LCD and ones eyes.

First, every time there is a thread in which people complain about LCDs and their eyes I recall similar widespread complaints regarding RSI and computer mice when mice were first introduced. One could have easily assumed back then that every second person had mouse induced RSI and now that with just the passing of time pretty much everyone uses mice without complaint one has to wonder how much the "problem" was psychosomatic. And that much of the so called LCD "light problem" is too, driven in a similar way by chattering class received information.

Second, I roll my eyes every time someone talks about LCDs shining light into their eyes, or claiming reflected light is different to emitted light. Well I'll give them that reflected light is different in that reflection renders it diffuse, but there again LCD screens diffuse their light too so no case there - they just need to turn the brightness down.

I can accept that some people with sight problems may find very poor contrast media such as E Ink and print on paper more comfortable, but as others have said they may need to be under medical care or else turn the brightness down. Also all the good reading apps give almost infinite control over background and print colour and density, background texture, and screen gesture control of brightness.

[meeera]

Originally Posted by AnotherCat

First, every time there is a thread in which people complain about LCDs and their eyes I recall similar widespread complaints regarding RSI and computer mice when mice were first introduced. One could have easily assumed back then that every second person had mouse induced RSI and now that with just the passing of time pretty much everyone uses mice without complaint one has to wonder how much the "problem" was psychosomatic.

Firstly, not everyone uses a mouse now "without complaint". However, there is now a huge variety of pointing devices to choose from, should your mouse not suit you: other mice of various shapes and sizes, trackballs, trackpads, etc. Back in the day, you generally pretty much got the mouse you were given. Now, there is much better awareness of all the choices available.

I also suspect that when they were first introduced, people were more anxious about learning to use them, gripped them tightly, didn't use keyboard shortcuts as much, etc.

signed, someone who can't use a Microsoft "Ergonomic" mouse for more than three or four minutes without hand and forearm pain.

[AnotherCat]

In a further effort to keep Jon happy I went on a mission yesterday morning by going into the largest seller of tablets and E Ink readers around here. I went in soon after they opened when they were not busy so I could have a chat with their sales people (I regularly have a look at the devices on sale but had not talked to sales staff for some time).

They had a range of Kindles and Kobo devices on display. First, as far as display of greyscale is concerned they were all abysmal when compared to any tablet worthy of the name. Of course that does not matter much if one just reads text and that text is just black on the screen.

I recognize the following is just from one site in my own country, but from what I hear it is representative. They advised that people are, in general, selecting tablets over E Ink devices for both a better reading experience and because they are more versatile. The Kindle Paperwhite was the biggest seller of the E Ink devices, probably because the Kindle name is much better known to casual users than Kobo is.

The salesperson I spent most time with volunteered that he no longer uses his Kindle, instead using a tablet and the Kindle app for reading. Like me (I swapped from E INK to tablets some time back) he would not go back to E Ink, at least at its current state.

I look at tablets quite often and for reading, of the ones I have seen, the current Samsung S range with their AMOLED displays seem best to me. They are expensive though and I cannot justify the extra cost for reading I stick with LCD (a Samsung at the moment). Note I do not look at Apple devices as I have no interest in that ecosphere at all, so can't comment on them.

[AnotherCat]

Originally Posted by meeera

Firstly, not everyone uses a mouse now "without complaint"...

No need to correct me, check and you will see that I said pretty much everyone uses mice without complaint. It is, in my view, poor practice to selectively edit words out of another's post in order to suit your own contrary purpose.

Originally Posted by meeera

signed, someone who can't use a Microsoft "Ergonomic" mouse for more than three or four minutes without hand and forearm pain.

You are not the only one, my wife cannot use a mouse comfortably due to arthritis. You, she and others similar are outliers though, most people do not have such difficulty.

[meeera]

Originally Posted by AnotherCat

No need to correct me, check and you will see that I said pretty much everyone uses mice without complaint. It is, in my view, poor practice to selectively edit words out of another's post in order to suit your own contrary purpose.

You are not the only one, my wife cannot use a mouse comfortably due to arthritis. You, she and others are outliers though, most people do not have such difficulty.

Most people didn't have significant RSI in the 1980s either, and writer's cramp was first described in the 18th century. Go google housemaid's knee, potter's arm, chicken plucker's wrist, tennis elbow... it's not a late twentieth century phenomenon. It isn't at all surprising that fixed, non-ergonomic postures in pressured occupations can cause physical pain; nor that the incidence rose as workplaces became computerised.

However, your post seems to assume that it has all but disappeared. It hasn't, though diagnosis has become more precise in some instances, so categorisation may be shifting; and many workplaces have become much more aware of prevention and early intervention.

[The part in the quote box in my post was cut n paste from yours; please don't accuse me of editing quotes, which is a heinous forum crime.]

[AnotherCat]

Originally Posted by meeera

...However, your post seems to assume that it has all but disappeared. It hasn't, though diagnosis has become more precise in some instances, so categorisation may be shifting; and many workplaces have become much more aware of prevention and early intervention.

Well I was in the workplace exposed to users both back when mice were first introduced and now. The issue with mice has pretty much disappeared all by itself (from my own observations in the workplace and the advice of others).

Interestingly, back then we could almost pick who were most likely get the issue, the very few with pre-existing hand/wrist conditions (of course), and those who had some particular characteristics in their personality.

Originally Posted by meeera

...The part in the quote box in my post was cut n paste from yours; please don't accuse me of editing quotes, which is a heinous forum crime.]

I am not going to persevere beating up a dead horse except to state once more that you did misquote me by your selectively leaving out my words "pretty much everyone" in order to support your own contrary point. I do agree with you that it was not good form for you to have done so. I'll leave it at that.

[shalym]

Originally Posted by AnotherCat

Well I was in the workplace exposed to users both back when mice were first introduced and now. The issue with mice has pretty much disappeared all by itself (from my own observations in the workplace and the advice of others).

Interestingly, back then we could almost pick who were most likely get the issue, the very few with pre-existing hand/wrist conditions (of course), and those who had some particular characteristics in their personality.


I am not going to persevere beating up a dead horse except to state once more that you did misquote me by your selectively leaving out my words "pretty much everyone" in order to support your own contrary point. I do agree with you that it was not good form for you to have done so. I'll leave it at that.

Sorry...but I just went back and checked Meera's post, and your quote was NOT edited at all. It definitely includes the phrase "pretty much everyone". I'm not sure why you're not seeing that in the quote?

To get back to the subject of LCD vs e-ink and people's eyes, I can read happily on LCD with no eye issues. I do prefer e-ink, though... for battery life, and lower weight, and just because, I guess.

Shari

[maddz]

To veer somewhat off-topic, I'm one of those people who have trouble using mice for longer than an hour or so. I have had tendonitis in both wrists, and my primary trigger is the sustained side-to-side wrist movements like you get using a mouse or an iron (which is why I no longer iron clothing except on rare occasions). The other trigger is vibration - I managed to trigger an attack earlier this year using a pressure washer to clean my driveway.

As a result, I use trackballs and an ultra-thin keyboard - this arrangement keeps my hands spread out and my wrists and hands are held like this: _ _ not like this: _ /. I also had minor problems when I got my iPad, but once I sourced a cover with handstrap, I was OK.

So if people say reading on an LCD screen for long periods gives them headaches and/or eye trouble, then my response would be to ask when was the last time they had their eyes tested? Being short sighted, I've always had my eyes tested annually even if I had to pay. I don't now as I was diagnosed with diabetes about 3 years ago now (so my eye tests and prescriptions are free), but previously my employer paid as my job involved long periods using computers.

Come to think of it, I used to get noon headaches on sunny days especially in the summer - I've been wearing spectacles since I was 11 (and almost certainly needed them long before that). That sounds a bit like the LCD issue; and the optician prescribed tinted lenses. No further problems with headaches.

[Cinisajoy]

Originally Posted by maddz

To veer somewhat off-topic, I'm one of those people who have trouble using mice for longer than an hour or so. I have had tendonitis in both wrists, and my primary trigger is the sustained side-to-side wrist movements like you get using a mouse or an iron (which is why I no longer iron clothing except on rare occasions). The other trigger is vibration - I managed to trigger an attack earlier this year using a pressure washer to clean my driveway.

As a result, I use trackballs and an ultra-thin keyboard - this arrangement keeps my hands spread out and my wrists and hands are held like this: _ _ not like this: _ /. I also had minor problems when I got my iPad, but once I sourced a cover with handstrap, I was OK.

So if people say reading on an LCD screen for long periods gives them headaches and/or eye trouble, then my response would be to ask when was the last time they had their eyes tested? Being short sighted, I've always had my eyes tested annually even if I had to pay. I don't now as I was diagnosed with diabetes about 3 years ago now (so my eye tests and prescriptions are free), but previously my employer paid as my job involved long periods using computers.

Come to think of it, I used to get noon headaches on sunny days especially in the summer - I've been wearing spectacles since I was 11 (and almost certainly needed them long before that). That sounds a bit like the LCD issue; and the optician prescribed tinted lenses. No further problems with headaches.

What is this iron you speak of?

[barryem]

Originally Posted by maddz

To veer somewhat off-topic, I'm one of those people who have trouble using mice for longer than an hour or so. I have had tendonitis in both wrists, and my primary trigger is the sustained side-to-side wrist movements like you get using a mouse or an iron (which is why I no longer iron clothing except on rare occasions).

You might try adjusting the way you use the mouse. I have very little wrist movement when I use my mouse. Almost none. For smaller movements I have the thick part of my palm resting on the mousepad and I move the mouse with my fingers. For larger movements I lift my hand a little and use my elbow.

I've never really realized this till I read your post and then I did a few things to see how I do them and realized I hardly move my wrist with the mouse movements.

I do have a tendency to get sore hands from certain motions but the mouse isn't one of them. For example I have to limit my time playing Minecraft on Windows 10 because the left hand movements on the 4 direction keys A,D,S and W will make the tendons in my hand swell and my hand gets very sore. I can't play more than an hour or so a week and that spread out over the week. An hour at once ruins my hand for several days.

Anyway you might try using the mouse as I described to see if that helps. If it doesn't you can have your money back.

Barry

[AnotherCat]

Originally Posted by shalym

Sorry...but I just went back and checked Meera's post, and your quote was NOT edited at all. It definitely includes the phrase "pretty much everyone". I'm not sure why you're not seeing that in the quote?

Well it definitely does not as this is what Meera posted in the body of their post in order to make the incorrect inference that I claimed that no one using a mouse suffered from RSI.

Originally Posted by meeera

Firstly, not everyone uses a mouse now "without complaint".

The quote "without complaint" is quoted from my post.

This is what I actually said

Originally Posted by AnotherCat

... One could have easily assumed back then that every second person had mouse induced RSI and now that with just the passing of time pretty much everyone uses mice without complaint one has to wonder how much the "problem" was psychosomatic. And that much of the so called LCD "light problem" is too, driven in a similar way by chattering class received information.

Go back and check, you will see that what I have said regarding selective quoting in the body of Meera's post is correct. You will no doubt agree that my stating pretty much everyone in my post made it clear that I believe that some mouse users do suffer from RSI.

All clear now? I hope so because I am dead tired of this carry on and I am sure many others are too.

[AnotherCat]

Originally Posted by barryem

...I have very little wrist movement when I use my mouse. Almost none. For smaller movements I have the thick part of my palm resting on the mousepad and I move the mouse with my fingers...

I do pretty much exactly the same - I tend to move the mouse sideways by sweeping my arm sideways, not moving my fingers or bending my wrist.

[JSWolf]

I try not to bend my wrist when I use a mouse.

Has anyone ever tried exercises to strengthen the wrist? If so, do they work?

[maddz]

Ah, that was the problem - insuffient desk space on old-style computer desks to move your arm; you could only move your wrist otherwise the mouse would fall off the desk. By the time I got a bigger desk, the damage was done and I rarely use a mouse now and when I do, it feels completely unnatural. I'll stick with my Kensington Orbit, thank you.