Sick of Amazon Kindle books without Page Numbers...

[haydnfan]

I think that I would like locations more if they were not defined in terms of file size and were also a larger unit. A unit that is 300 words would be nice. It's roughly the size of a page and takes the average reader one minute to read.

I've seen a few posts here saying that defining a page as a screen is somehow bad because it depends on font size. To me that's an illogical, silly thing to say. I have two copies of Dune on my shelf and they each have different page counts due to having different sized font. Because in the print world page count depends on font sizes. I don't see why that can't be that way in the digital world.

The pages = screens seen on Kobo devices is my preferred unit. It's not defined in terms of some arbitrary reference like ADE page #s or kindle location #s. It's not defined in terms of some specific print edition that you'll never look at like kindle page numbers.

And let's face it, you each have one preferred font size. Once you set and forget it you can grow an intuition for how long a screen takes to read.

[shalym]

Originally Posted by haydnfan

I think that I would like locations more if they were not defined in terms of file size and were also a larger unit. A unit that is 300 words would be nice. It's roughly the size of a page and takes the average reader one minute to read.

I've seen a few posts here saying that defining a page as a screen is somehow bad because it depends on font size. To me that's an illogical, silly thing to say. I have two copies of Dune on my shelf and they each have different page counts due to having different sized font. Because in the print world page count depends on font sizes. I don't see why that can't be that way in the digital world.

The pages = screens seen on Kobo devices is my preferred unit. It's not defined in terms of some arbitrary reference like ADE page #s or kindle location #s. It's not defined in terms of some specific print edition that you'll never look at like kindle page numbers.

And let's face it, you each have one preferred font size. Once you set and forget it you can grow an intuition for how long a screen takes to read.

Actually, I don't have "one preferred font size". It all depends on how tired my eyes are, and whether or not I'm wearing my glasses. (I don't wear my glasses to read in bed) I go up and down between 3 different font sizes throughout the day, usually...sometimes 4 if it's a really bad day. If page number was defined as a "screen", then the number of pages would keep changing throughout the day, and drive me crazy.

Shari

[radius]

Originally Posted by Hitch

I understand the progress thing. Makes perfect sense to me. Or, X minutes remaining in this book. What I don't get is the page numbers thing, versus Locations, or the "page numbers" created, on the fly, by other devices, that are just as fake as Location numbers. That's kind of my question. Is it because they are called "pages?"

To me, the difference is ADE pages are somewhat close to paperback novel size. So if I see a book is 150 ADE pages, I know that will maybe take me a little over an hour to read and that it is the length of an older novel or a modern novella. I've also compared the page counts of some books which I have in both ebook and paper book form and the ADE page count is reasonably similar.

How about Kindle locations? For me, locations are too fine grained. It's too hard to reason about 5 or 6 digit numbers at a quick glance. I find I have to stop and think about it, and I don't have a lifetime of reading habit to help me. What I end up doing when I read on a Kindle is divide location by 20 for a rough conversion to a "page". 20 isn't the best conversion factor, but it's the easiest one to do and is close enough for me.

Edit: When I look through my library to decide what to read next, the length of the book is one of the factors, depending on my mood. I might not want to start a super long novel, or I might find a short book unsatisfying depending on what I want at the time. Pages give me an easy way to decide that. File size isn't useful because of how much variation images might add. And as I said earlier, I don't have a good gut feel for how long a book is in locations.

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by exaltedwombat

The only time I'm affected by locations is when a customer wants revisions of an eBook job and quotes page numbers. I then have to start guessing...

Wow, you get page numbers? ;-)

What I get are page numbers...from their Word or PDF file, something like this:

Page 86, 7th line from the top, delete "of."

I swear, not making this up. Happens at least once a day around here. Doesn't matter what our instructions say, the videos....daily occurrence. {sigh}


Hitch

[JSWolf]

Does anyone have any better way of doing page numbers other than ADE? I don't care for the Kindle way as it requires a second file. ADE page numbers do not. Radius said it better that ADE page numbers are easier to deal with than locations.

Remember, the criteria for eBook page numbers has to be that changing settings cannot change the page numbers. So font, font size, line-height, margins, etc. cannot change the page numbers otherwise, the page number are worthless.

[Dazrin]

Personally, if I was supreme dictator and could tell all the various parties what they had to do, I would like to see a scheme based on rendered text instead of file size or marked up text, compressed or otherwise. That way bad coding doesn't come into play (unless it is REALLY bad and things are rendered incorrectly), format doesn't matter (Kindle/ePub/etc. would all be the same), and the average person could understand what it was based on.

If it was based on 250-350 rendered words* it would approximate a standard paperback book page**. I would lean towards 250 since it makes the math easier.

I don't expect to see this happen, but it would be nice to have consistency.


*Yes, "words" are calculated many different ways. Choose one and stick with it. I don't really care which as long as it is consistent.
**It seems outdated to use "paperback book pages" as a reference but it is what everyone here grew up with to one extent or another and we all know about how fast we read in that context which makes it useful enough. Even my 8yo knows how long a "page" is. It will take generations before we get out of that mode, even if we made a change like this now.

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

Does anyone have any better way of doing page numbers other than ADE? I don't care for the Kindle way as it requires a second file. ADE page numbers do not. Radius said it better that ADE page numbers are easier to deal with than locations.

Jon, you are conflating two things. You only need a second file, in MOBI format, if you plan to do "real" page numbers. Why Amazon went with the Locations methodology that they did, I have no idea, but redoing that into a simpler pages format, based on somehting like 250-300 words/page wouldn't be impossible. Not if Amazon wanted to do it that way.

Page mapping is really only for RPNs. Nothing else.

Remember, the criteria for eBook page numbers has to be that changing settings cannot change the page numbers. So font, font size, line-height, margins, etc. cannot change the page numbers otherwise, the page number are worthless.

I don't think that anyone has suggested that, have they? Everyone here agrees, as far as I've seen, that it should be set on something simple and normal, like characters. I have no issue with the idea that it should be basically 1500 chars. (a page, roughly, is 250 "words" of 5 characters each [1250 characters] plus one space per word, [1250 characters + 250 word spaces of 1 space each = 1500 chars]). To me, that would make sense.

Which, of course, means it shall never--ever--happen.

Hitch

[Dazrin]

Originally Posted by Hitch

Which, of course, means it shall never--ever--happen.

If people with "common sense" ruled the world it might be a much better place. Less ... interesting ... sometimes but a better place.

[davidfor]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

Does anyone have any better way of doing page numbers other than ADE? I don't care for the Kindle way as it requires a second file. ADE page numbers do not. Radius said it better that ADE page numbers are easier to deal with than locations.

Remember, the criteria for eBook page numbers has to be that changing settings cannot change the page numbers. So font, font size, line-height, margins, etc. cannot change the page numbers otherwise, the page number are worthless.

Doing better than ADE would be easy. Simply by using the uncompressed file size in the calculation would be better (want a book with more pages in it, change the compression level). Then, just using the actual text and not including the mark-up would be better (want a book with more pages in it, add some spans or add a classes to each tag).

Going better than that depends on the purpose of the page numbers. As a measure of how far I am through a book, then any method will be OK. To be able to tell someone to turn to page x, then all of them are rubbish as everything about the book has to be identical. In that case, it is better to do something like "Chapter 4, paragraph 10" or, "Go to chapter 4 and search for ...". The former is effectively what ADE, the calibre viewer and probably other ereaders and apps do under the covers for positions. If the purpose is to compare how long two books are, then word count is probably a better measure. But, as no-one can agree on how to count words, that is going to work just as well as counting pages.

[AlanHK]

On Kindle, I'm happy enough that it can show the percentage of the book I'm at. But annoyed that it doesn't show where I am in a chapter.

The only indication for chapters is "Time left" which is completely bogus. Obviously some calculation on my previous rate, which is thrown off when I am doing something else with the book open. Just say "45% of chapter 5".

Now I jump forward to the next chapter, note the "Location", jump back and try to remember that as a gauge of progress.

Ideally, I'd want dynamic page numbers corresponding to screens at the current settings. I have DOS layout programs that could do this on a PCXT 30 years ago, so I don't think it's very demanding .

In the footer I'd like the chapter name too:

Chapter 4 - 4 screens left of 42 - screen 203 of 926

That would all fit. Just truncate extremely long chapter titles.

[radius]

Originally Posted by AlanHK

On Kindle, I'm happy enough that it can show the percentage of the book I'm at. But annoyed that it doesn't show where I am in a chapter.

I'm curious where you developed the habit of wanting to know how much reading you have left to finish a chapter? I guess some other ereader device? (since paper books don't give you that information in a convenient way either)

People often mention wanting to know this but I have never understood why. When I run out of time, I just stop reading wherever I am in the book and take up from there later. It's not like you even need to insert a bookmark or anything with an ereader, it will keep track of that for you.

Is it really that much more satisfying to hit the end of the chapter before stopping?

[church mouse]

I too love chapter information. As a child, I developed the habit of counting forward in the book to work out how many pages were in the current chapter and timed my reading accordingly.

Thinking about it, this may be a habit resulting from school reading lessons and homework, where reading was taught and tested by chapters.

A key element in choosing my ereader application is that it shows chapter progress and, whenever possible, I will not finish reading part way through a chapter (a trait which my partner finds bemusing).

[Terisa de morgan]

Well, if you're liking a book it is... I'm going tomread till the end of the chapter...

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by Terisa de morgan

Well, if you're liking a book it is... I'm going tomread till the end of the chapter...

And for that, I find the "time left in chapter" setting to be the most convenient setting. I want to know if it's 5 minutes (in which case I'll finish the chapter) or 30 minutes (in which case I'll stop reading where I am now). The number of pages is irrelevant.

[Terisa de morgan]

Originally Posted by HarryT

And for that, I find the "time left in chapter" setting to be the most convenient setting. I want to know if it's 5 minutes (in which case I'll finish the chapter) or 30 minutes (in which case I'll stop reading where I am now). The number of pages is irrelevant.

It isn't... if the time calculation is not right (as usual). But all of us have our methods and likings.