Dawn, A Sci-Fi story on a forsaken planet, by Weston Westmoreland

[Peto]

That's OK. It's your opinion

[Cinisajoy]

Ok, I am back. I read as much of the look inside as I could tolerate.
I must ask, who is your target audience? Adults or 12 year old boys?
If it is the latter, you may have a hit on your hands.
Your sentence structure could use some work. Some of your phrasing sounds like a very young man's writing.
The first sentence in your prologue is likely to turn off many readers.

You may have worked on your book for years, but between the cover and the prologue, it screams amateur.
Oh and your 4 and 5 star reviews are not helping either. (Friends or a cheap website for your arcs? )

I'm not trying to be mean, but your book needs some work before it is ready to publish.

Let me know if I am wrong on any of these things.
1. You made the cover yourself on a home computer using an easily found image and several common fonts. Or you used print master.
2. You ran it through word as a proofreader. Or you spent $5 for a proofreader.
3. Only friends and family saw the book before you published it.
4. You spent absolutely no money on this book.
5. You spent many hours writing this book and now consider it finished.

Once again, another one that might have potential if he chose to invest more than just a little time.

You also might want to grow a thick skin for when real reviewers read your book. Oh and don't snark at them, it just makes you look bad.

[Cinisajoy]

Oh one other thing or two. You are way older than I thought you were.
Two: if you want more readers, don't announce to the world Dawn is your first book.

If you post stalk me, you will find numerous examples of why people are very leery of self-published authors.

[Peto]

Thought I might answer these comments, at least the ones which have an objective answer, for whomever might be interested. I'll try to be accurate:

-Target audience: from 17 and older. The story is a tad violent for younger people, I think.

-Amateur writer: True, I am not a pro.

-Amazon Stars: Some are from colleagues, of course, but they actually lower the average. 7 reviews are however not very meaningful, I agree. Time should tell. The book is doing fine, considering I am nobody. I have also requested reviews from about 80 reviewers from TheIndieView.com., from whom 10 already accepted. They will take a while but their reviews are thorough. Again, time will tell.

-Cover: The cover was made by the very same guy who made the cover art for Mark Knopfler's last soundtrack album. You might still find it cheap, anyway. But that's the fact.

-I paid the best reputed Fiverr proofreader I could hire, pencilprincess7, for a cleaning. Paid $120. Not much, I know, but US prices are seen differently from abroad. Should have paid three or four times that or higher for a pro proofread, but I simply cannot afford it.

-No friends or family read this book. At all. There is a very simple reason, but I will keep it to myself for now.

-Expenditure: Already answered in part. There were some promotion costs, but not much at this time. I have a notion to invest more in the next promo, but that will be after I have a relevant number of trustworthy reviews. And it won't be a giveaway. Amazon's algorithms have changed.

-A digital book is never finished. They tend to have a life of their own. I have already uploaded v1.42 to Amazon. Added a small image and corrected some typos. And there will be an illustrated edition further ahead. Anyone who got v1.0 and wants to get the freshest version, only need to request it at mail@WestonWestmoreland.com.

Didn't think I was snarking. I just answered freely and as truthfully as I could. If it sounded like snarking, I apologize. I do welcome honest, well-intended feedback, even when it does not sound as I could wish, or while I do not always necessarily agree.

It is my first book. If that is a reason for some people not to buy it, they should know.

[Cinisajoy]

Actually, you are now a professional author. The second you made your first dime your status changed.

I thought that was a fivver proofread.

Congratulations in advance on getting more 5 star reviews.

As to the cover, I went and looked at the albums. Good album covers, but they wouldn't translate well to book covers.

Can't blame you on the friends and family.

Oh, I see you are one of those that constantly revamps his books because he can.
This can turn off readers.

I am glad your book is doing good.

Now please remove your email address due to this is a public forum that anyone can read.

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by Peto

Thought I might answer these comments, at least the ones which have an objective answer, for whomever might be interested. I'll try to be accurate:

-Target audience: from 17 and older. The story is a tad violent for younger people, I think.

Only you can address that. It's unlikely that the rest of us will know whether or not it's suitable, as so far, I'm not guessing that most of the folks here will be reading it.

-Amateur writer: True, I am not a pro.

YOU ARE NOW. This is probably the worst thing, ever--that so many writers think that because they're not trade-pubbed, it's "okay" to say, "I'm just an ammy, but--pay for my work." Choose. Either put your work up for free, and call yourself an amateur--or be a professional. If you want money for your work, you're a pro, and should behave and PAY like a pro.

-Amazon Stars: Some are from colleagues, of course, but they actually lower the average. 7 reviews are however not very meaningful, I agree. Time should tell. The book is doing fine, considering I am nobody. I have also requested reviews from about 80 reviewers from TheIndieView.com., from whom 10 already accepted. They will take a while but their reviews are thorough. Again, time will tell.

But, their reviews stay on IR, right? Won't help you at Amazon.

-Cover: The cover was made by the very same guy who made the cover art for Mark Knopfler's last soundtrack album. You might still find it cheap, anyway. But that's the fact.

Someday, an author will come to my shop, knowing that a cover is a single thing--clickbait. Nothing more.

-I paid the best reputed Fiverr proofreader I could hire, pencilprincess7, for a cleaning. Paid $120. Not much, I know, but US prices are seen differently from abroad. Should have paid three or four times that or higher for a pro proofread, but I simply cannot afford it.

Well, the old adage, you get what you pay for, is holding true. There's a reason that real editors, development editors, charge thousands. There's a reason that a typical proofreader earns 4-5x what your charged you. While the first "page" or so is quite clean, I've suddenly found a number of errors in two sentences--"matt black" should be "matte black," and "Two long fine cables, which ended in small round sticky pads, were plugged into one of its sides." The commas aren't quite WRONG, but there's no reason for them. Both should go. They are doing nothing but slowing down the pace of the story.

While I appreciate that you were setting the stage, with the opening scene, I'd have told you to move it later in the book. Build it in someplace else. In this day and age, you have to open in the middle of the action, even dialogue. I'd have told you to start with the first line of dialogue "Ha ha ha..." in your first chapter. It would have been easy to modify that first paragraph to follow the opening set of dialogue, and pulled the reader into the story faster.

Moreover, a decent editor would have told you to eliminate many of your adverbs and descriptions. You use them a lot. I appreciate that you're trying to paint a mental image of the area, and what the characters are doing, but there are BETTER ways to do that. You describe everything. Constantly. You literally can't get through two sentences without it. Dusty earth. Shiny metal. "Sandy pallor" of the "shaded areas" contrasting with the "rich reddish tones" and "darkening blue hues" crossed by "still peaceful" clouds. That's one damn sentence. It's not godawful, please understand--I've seen a lot worse--but it's a tell. For anyone in publishing, or who reads constantly, it's an instant tell: first book! First book! And more importantly, again: it slows the reader's absorption into the story. This is writing you'd have seen 100 years ago, and while that was fine then, it's not a style that appeals widely today.

-No friends or family read this book. At all. There is a very simple reason, but I will keep it to myself for now.

Well, if you're like many, you just don't want them to know you're writing. Fair 'nuff.

-Expenditure: Already answered in part. There were some promotion costs, but not much at this time. I have a notion to invest more in the next promo, but that will be after I have a relevant number of trustworthy reviews. And it won't be a giveaway. Amazon's algorithms have changed.

Can't speak to that.

-A digital book is never finished. They tend to have a life of their own. I have already uploaded v1.42 to Amazon. Added a small image and corrected some typos. And there will be an illustrated edition further ahead. Anyone who got v1.0 and wants to get the freshest version, only need to request it at mail@WestonWestmoreland.com.

AND, this? I violently object to this, and I disagree. If I see that an author has uploaded "new" versions, to Amazon? I won't bother to buy that book. Or anything else that she's written. There's nothing worse, to me, than some writer thinking that I'm PAYING my money to be his critique group. To me, that's arrogant and utterly unwarranted. I can get free ARCS from trade-published authors who want my feedback. Why on earth would I pay to be yours?

That's the bad news in the digital, self-publishing age. Just because word-processors CAN change text doesn't mean that a book should never be done. If you expect people to pay, you better put out the very best version of that book that you can, and then move on to your next one.

Didn't think I was snarking. I just answered freely and as truthfully as I could. If it sounded like snarking, I apologize. I do welcome honest, well-intended feedback, even when it does not sound as I could wish, or while I do not always necessarily agree.

It is my first book. If that is a reason for some people not to buy it, they should know.

No, they oughtn't. They should not be able to know, unless your work is so bad that they can tell, themselves, unaided, by the LITB.

Look, I've seen a LOT worse, I have. But you should get into a critique group--many are FREE, so there's no excuse not to--and work on polishing your writing. Don't keep rewriting this--you've published it, it's done. Work on your next book.

And don't assume that your paying readers are your critique group, or that they'd be amused to find out that version 5 exists because the version that they PAID FOR and already read is crappy. How would you feel about that, if it were you?

Good luck. Get a critique or writer's group. A real one, not some half-assed Internet thing where everyone sits around giving each other **** jobs about how great they and their books are. Take a CW course, and get REAL feedback from an actual published author. Take your book to Critters.org, and get feedback from a bunch of SFWA authors.

Oh, and I'm with Cins--there's nothing "cute" or "mischievous" about a cover with text I can't read. It's another #1 new author mistake--that just means that prospective buyers will pass on by. Nobody is going to click your cover, to read your "cleverly placed text." Use CoverCritics.com for your covers. Grow and learn.

Hitch

[Peto]

Hi there, lots of interesting thoughts I will take into account. As usual, I will try to answer where I can.

The "Pro" issue. I am not hiding behind an amateur pose, I think a Pro is somebody who lives from doing something. I published a book and am trying to sell it. If that makes me a pro for you, a pro I am. However, I simply think considering myself a professional writer because I published a book is just a joke. I am not that presumptuous. If you sell your car you are a professional car salesman? If you make a table and sell it you are a professional carpenter? I don't think so, but if you do, it's ok by me. No argument there.

Reviewers and so. Most of the reviews of the IR people will show on their own blogs, Amazon, and Goodreads by default. But it takes a t least a couple of months.

Covers. I think covers just need to draw attention. If you ask me, they are normally too flashy and oversaturated, but if you want to draw attention with a 1" x 0.5" cover in Amazon you need to do like the rest. At that size, almost no text shows correctly and images need to be simple and recognizable. When you click on the book you can read everything and see the details, for what they are worth. Beyond that, the importance people seem to be giving here to the cover seems to me disproportionate as a reader. A bad cover will not draw your attention, but rejecting a book because you don't like the cover seems preposterous to the reader in me.

As a guy who wrote a book and is trying to sell it, I need the flashiest cover I can manage, of course. As a reader, the cover drags my attention or not. If it does, I do not give it any further consideration. I will then judge the blurb and other readers' opinions. I have read quite a few crappy books with wonderful covers. Like everybody here, I guess. What I have never done is reject a book that seems appealing to me in blurb and reviews because the cover is crappy. Judging the book by the cover and all that...

About getting what you pay for and "paying like a pro". I pay what I can afford. That's the long and short of it. If that's not enough for some, I'm afraid there is nothing I can do about it. Fortunately, not everybody sees things the same way.

Commas. There are people who agree with you, there are others who oppose, and most of the people don't really care. What style etiquete tells you about these optional commas is to pick a pattern and to be consistent. That's what I did. Some will like it and some won't. Cannot please everybody, but to do things right, consistency is what matters here. Beyond this, it is a matter of taste, a purely subjective matter.

http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/matt

The rest of these three paragraphs talk about style. Nothing to agree or disagree about because you are right. However, I think different, and I am also right. It's a matter of taste, and one cannot please everybody, and most important, I happen to like it better my way. It is funny because I have been told I describe too little by people who have actually read the whole book. The fast pace of the story has also been praised by readers.

About that sentence you mention, you are right, that's one hell of a dense sentence. Guilty as charged. It is a very graphic description that gives you the image you should keep of the general landscape throughout most the novel. It's vivid and meaningful if you read on. But the sentence is definitely baroque. Specially if you isolate it. I am sure you can fin more examples, but I do not agree it affects the overall rhythm.

Versions... you mean you would never buy a second edition of a paper book? Or you would not accept a new edition with corrected typos? Or that you would reject the option of an alternative illustrated edition? It's your right to do so, but I am reading books since I was six, and as a reader, I do not agree with you at all.

I do not get this paragraph... "And don't assume that your paying readers are your critique group, or that they'd be amused to find out that version 5 exists because the version that they PAID FOR and already read is crappy. How would you feel about that, if it were you?"

Who are my critique group if not those who have read the book? And these are not necessarily paying readers, since I had the novel for free in Amazon for 5 days. But they are actual readers, and with all due respect, their opinion means much more than that of anyone who has spent some time reading diagonally. Wouldn't you agree? As for reading a book and finding later new editions have been released, it has often happened to me and does not bother me in the least. It is you who freely and without argumentation asumes the previous version was crappy. I, as a reader, don't. In fact, I would be actually offended if I get a second edition and find the same typos as in the first one.

About the critique groups, I'll keep that in mind for new writings, If they come, but I have the idea, maybe prejudiced, that most of these groups are for patting each other on the back. I poked my head in some and ran like the wind...

This is a self-published work, a one-man-project. You cannot expect an industrial product. That's not what I offer. That's not what I want to offer. And I couldn't offer it if I wanted to. There will be typos, the style will not be aseptic, but it is a honest effort without commercial subterfuge. I understand not everybody will like that. I did not write the story I thought people would want to buy, I wrote the story I wanted to read. I like this story, I like the characters, and people who have read it so far seem to like them too. That's good enough for me. Hopefully, if I keep on writing, I'll do it better.

[Cinisajoy]

I want to acknowledge your last paragraph first.
Yes, as someone who pays you for your work I do expect a professional job. The second you published your book you became a professional. It doesn't matter how much money you make.
You made $1 in that field, automatic professional. You can no longer compete in the Olympics.

On fiction, if I bought the first edition, it means I read the first edition. Unless it is a very special book, why would I waste my money on a second edition I won't read. Especially if it is only because the author realized his book was full of errors. Secondly on this note, not only would I not waste my money on a second edition, I wouldn't waste my money on the author again.

Now as to non-fiction, I would not consider buying a second edition unless it said revised and not just the second printing if I owned the first. I have various editions of Better Homes and Gardens New Cookbook.
On the Boston Cooking School Cookbook, I have the 1928, 1936, 1948 and 1951 editions. I also have the 1896 reproduction put out in 1996.
Now I did recently replace two cookbooks with exact duplicates.

I know it seems like we have been a bit rough on you. You did ask for feedback.
Some of us just look out for the readers.
Now if you really want to be a professional author, might I recommend Russell Blake's blog and J A Konrath's Guide to self publishing. Especially the earlier blog posts.

And just for your information, the only reason I am not a published author, though I do have a paper book, is because I don't have the $300 or so to get it ready for publication.

Hey question, let's say you have a bit of storm damage. Are you going to go with an actual reputable company in your area or the guy that calls and says he is from pronounce name very fast roofing in the next town over with a number that is 400 miles away? (Oh and gives an 800 number when you ask for the local number.) I think I would pick the first one.

If I didn't think you had potential, I wouldn't have given you feedback.
Please save all your change and get your book redone by someone who's first language is English.
Remember you get what you pay for.

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by Peto

Hi there, lots of interesting thoughts I will take into account. As usual, I will try to answer where I can.

The "Pro" issue. I am not hiding behind an amateur pose, I think a Pro is somebody who lives from doing something. I published a book and am trying to sell it. If that makes me a pro for you, a pro I am. However, I simply think considering myself a professional writer because I published a book is just a joke. I am not that presumptuous. If you sell your car you are a professional car salesman? If you make a table and sell it you are a professional carpenter? I don't think so, but if you do, it's ok by me. No argument there.

So...your definition of a professional is what the person you're buying something from thinks they are? In secret? No offense, but...no. Look at it like this, perhaps: you come to my shop, asking for commercial formatting. I assign John to convert your book. When it's done, and we give it to you to review, you ask me why there are so many conversion mistakes, and my response is, "well, he's not really a professional converter. He's just a hobbyist. But--you don't mind, do you?"

You would be rightfully furious. After all--I'm selling a service. Do you expect that I'm selling the Amateur Hour service? Or do you expect that I'm giving you proper professional/commercial service? You are, after all, paying, are you not? If I were to charge some lesser amount, would you think "oh, right, of course, they're AMATEURS, not professionals," or would you think that you got lucky on the pricing?

Reviewers and so. Most of the reviews of the IR people will show on their own blogs, Amazon, and Goodreads by default. But it takes a t least a couple of months.

Well, in the experience of my clients, FWIW, reviews anyplace but Amazon might as well be written on the walls of privies. My experience on this is that I was a paid book reviewer, in the early 90's, before the advent of this tsunami of self-publishing, and those reviews, today, have almost no value, because the "hive mind" of amateur reviews, on Amazon, are what make and break a book.

Covers. I think covers just need to draw attention. If you ask me, they are normally too flashy and oversaturated, but if you want to draw attention with a 1" x 0.5" cover in Amazon you need to do like the rest. At that size, almost no text shows correctly and images need to be simple and recognizable. When you click on the book you can read everything and see the details, for what they are worth. Beyond that, the importance people seem to be giving here to the cover seems to me disproportionate as a reader. A bad cover will not draw your attention, but rejecting a book because you don't like the cover seems preposterous to the reader in me.

Before I was doing this professionally, I once told a Book Shepherd that only an IDIOT would think tht covers sold books. She was DAFT! The books sold books--of course. right? I'm here to tell you that I was 100% dead WRONG. Great covers sell books. Great covers will sell very mediocre books, far beyond the sales that they deserve. Medicore covers will SINK books that deserve better sales--and I can PROVE IT.

I have a client with 3 different series out there, all trade-pubbed. The first came to us to be backlist-published in eBooks. These books are a series, same characters, in order. You'd expect that book 1 would sell X, and then the next 5 would sell roughly the same, right?

NOT at all. His first book sells well; then his 3rd, 4th, 5th, and 6th. What about his 2nd? His second book has a dark, somewhat mediocre cover. And it doesn't sell HALF of what the others do. HALF. The bestselling? Book 3. Which has the best cover? Wait for it--book 3.

Don't tell yourself that great writing will overcome a crap cover. It won't.

As a guy who wrote a book and is trying to sell it, I need the flashiest cover I can manage, of course. As a reader, the cover drags my attention or not. If it does, I do not give it any further consideration. I will then judge the blurb and other readers' opinions. I have read quite a few crappy books with wonderful covers. Like everybody here, I guess. What I have never done is reject a book that seems appealing to me in blurb and reviews because the cover is crappy. Judging the book by the cover and all that...

Those wonderful books/crappy covers are PROBABLY not self-pubbed, out there competing with now 5-million other self-pubbed books. It's your book, do what you want.

BUT, FWIW, you should read this: http://www.creativindie.com/8-cover-...-buying-books/ . Then read it again. And again, until you believe it. If it wouldn't get me in trouble with my clients, I could show you book after book where a mediocre cover tanked a damn decent book, and where a really great cover made a VERY mediocre, at best, book sell damn well.

About getting what you pay for and "paying like a pro". I pay what I can afford. That's the long and short of it. If that's not enough for some, I'm afraid there is nothing I can do about it. Fortunately, not everybody sees things the same way.

Well, it's how you see it and you're assuming that "not everybody" sees things that way. I see, read, and hear this same argument day in and day out. {shrug}. And then, typically, the authors that are serious about becoming working writers will find a way to pay for those things that they need, like editing.

Commas. There are people who agree with you, there are others who oppose, and most of the people don't really care. What style etiquete tells you about these optional commas is to pick a pattern and to be consistent. That's what I did. Some will like it and some won't. Cannot please everybody, but to do things right, consistency is what matters here. Beyond this, it is a matter of taste, a purely subjective matter.

Not really. Commas, and the proper use thereof, aren't subjective. If you want to argue the Oxford comma, for lists, fine. We can argue that. Other than the Oxford comma, the use of commas is correct or incorrect. It's absolutely, positively, not "subjective."

http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/matt

Well, I own over 4,000 books, all read, and never--not once--have I seen "matt" used in lieu of matte, and, before you say it, probably a thousand of them are UK-pubbed books.

The rest of these three paragraphs talk about style. Nothing to agree or disagree about because you are right. However, I think different, and I am also right. It's a matter of taste, and one cannot please everybody, and most important, I happen to like it better my way. It is funny because I have been told I describe too little by people who have actually read the whole book. The fast pace of the story has also been praised by readers.

Fine. Good luck to you. And anyone--ANYONE--that tells you that you don't use enough descriptives didn't read anything you wrote.

About that sentence you mention, you are right, that's one hell of a dense sentence. Guilty as charged. It is a very graphic description that gives you the image you should keep of the general landscape throughout most the novel. It's vivid and meaningful if you read on. But the sentence is definitely baroque. Specially if you isolate it. I am sure you can fin more examples, but I do not agree it affects the overall rhythm.

BUT, it's not an isolated example. The entire first few pages are like that. To anyone who reads, it SCREAMS "first book! First book!" It's NOT style. It's experience. You don't have enough experience to gently feed the descriptions in, through other means, through actions, through dialogue, through beats. So you're dumping them in, sentence after sentence after sentence.

But you know what? Ignore me. You asked for comments, and so far, you've effectively told me (and Cins) that I'm wrong about every single thing I've said, telling me that a) you don't have the money to do better, so, tough; b) you're not a professional, so, we have no right to expect professional work; c) the mistakes I've pointed out to you are "stylistic." Oh, and right--I'm all wrong about the cover, too. But, don't feel alone. 99% of the authors who post on the KDP forums, asking "why isn't my book selling," or "how can I make my book better" all turn right around and argue about every single comment, too. It's why I should know better than to make the effort.

Versions... you mean you would never buy a second edition of a paper book? Or you would not accept a new edition with corrected typos? Or that you would reject the option of an alternative illustrated edition? It's your right to do so, but I am reading books since I was six, and as a reader, I do not agree with you at all.

Do you really think that ANYONE would buy a second edition of a book of fiction to get the "corrected" version? For one thing, Amazon will blow that right out of the water--they'll tell you to FIX the first one, and then push that to your buyers. They won't let you charge to fix what should have been fixed in the first place. Secondly, HELL NO, I wouldn't buy a second version of a fiction book, to get FIXES. That's absurd. Comparing fixing mistakes to a Second Illustrated Edition of Book X is apples/oranges.

With regard to non-fiction, later editions are usually adding material of substance, or updates due to legal changes, and so on. They're not issued to fix typos, grammar and punctuation issues.

When the publishers of Annie Lamott's Bird by Bird found a ton of mistakes in her eBook, do you think that they issued a second, fixed version, and charged for it? They most certainly did not. They fixed the damn thing, as it ought to have been, and sent every single purchaser the fixed version. You really think you can do what Annie Lamott cannot?

I do not get this paragraph... "And don't assume that your paying readers are your critique group, or that they'd be amused to find out that version 5 exists because the version that they PAID FOR and already read is crappy. How would you feel about that, if it were you?"

Who are my critique group if not those who have read the book? And these are not necessarily paying readers, since I had the novel for free in Amazon for 5 days. But they are actual readers, and with all due respect, their opinion means much more than that of anyone who has spent some time reading diagonally. Wouldn't you agree? As for reading a book and finding later new editions have been released, it has often happened to me and does not bother me in the least. It is you who freely and without argumentation asumes the previous version was crappy. I, as a reader, don't. In fact, I would be actually offended if I get a second edition and find the same typos as in the first one.

I'm sorry, but if you genuinely think that it's appropriate for you to expect your PAID readers to be your critique group, so that yu can fix what should have been right, in the first place, when they kerplunked down their money, we'll never see eye to eye. I can't even imagine receiving a book to review, with a request for payment. That's hilarious. Why do you think that publishers--like HarperCollins, RandomHouse, etc. send out FREE ARCs? It's not to waste money, that's for damned sure.

About the critique groups, I'll keep that in mind for new writings, If they come, but I have the idea, maybe prejudiced, that most of these groups are for patting each other on the back. I poked my head in some and ran like the wind...

Then you went to/visited some hare-brained writer's group, NOT a critique group. Trust me, they are absolutely not for patting each other on the back. Of course, given that many of today's writers seem unable to take any critique at all, perhaps this is what is occurring to honest critique groups.

This is a self-published work, a one-man-project. You cannot expect an industrial product. That's not what I offer. That's not what I want to offer. And I couldn't offer it if I wanted to. There will be typos, the style will not be aseptic, but it is a honest effort without commercial subterfuge. I understand not everybody will like that. I did not write the story I thought people would want to buy, I wrote the story I wanted to read. I like this story, I like the characters, and people who have read it so far seem to like them too. That's good enough for me. Hopefully, if I keep on writing, I'll do it better.

Well, then, that's what you've written. There's really no point in further discussion, because you're simply going to ignore what I say. Nothing new in that.

Hitch

[JSWolf]

I second that a bad cover will tank a book good or not. The first thing people see is the cover and if the cover is bad, they don't get to the description. They go right on past the book in the listing. If the cover is good, you might get people to reads the description and then they might buy. I pass on bad covers because there are a lot of books out there I know I'll like. If you can't be bothered to make a good cover, I cannot be bothered to read your book.

[Peto]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

I second that a bad cover will tank a book good or not. The first thing people see is the cover and if the cover is bad, they don't get to the description. They go right on past the book in the listing. If the cover is good, you might get people to reads the description and then they might buy. I pass on bad covers because there are a lot of books out there I know I'll like. If you can't be bothered to make a good cover, I cannot be bothered to read your book.

I have agreed to that 100% from the beginning. What I do not share is the opinion of the cover of some forum members . Or I agree to what they say about the subtitle but do not find it all that relevant (more about this later).

[Peto]

Originally Posted by Cinisajoy

I want to acknowledge your last paragraph first.
Yes, as someone who pays you for your work I do expect a professional job. The second you published your book you became a professional. It doesn't matter how much money you make.
You made $1 in that field, automatic professional. You can no longer compete in the Olympics.

On fiction, if I bought the first edition, it means I read the first edition. Unless it is a very special book, why would I waste my money on a second edition I won't read. Especially if it is only because the author realized his book was full of errors. Secondly on this note, not only would I not waste my money on a second edition, I wouldn't waste my money on the author again.

I explained my concept for pro but also accepted yours explicitly. You are of course entitled to expect a professional job. However, there must be some difference between indie and industrial, right? or you demand the same things from both? Do you expect to find the same movies at the Oscars and at Sundance? Because I expect and demand different things. Sundance is lower budget, more personal, intimate, honest. Most directors in these festivals want to make movies. Oscars are normally for massive superproductions that follow the commercial conventions that will get the highest income return. Most directors in this festival want to make money. That's all I am saying.

I am not dumb, I am not reckless. I run on a nonexistent budget.. I have written the novel to the best of my ability, proofread it till my eyes crossed, spent all I could afford on getting a professional finish with an edition by an external professional editor. And if you don't find this acceptable as a customer, you are right and shouldn't buy this novel. I have no tell on that. But there is no way I am going to try to hide the fat I am a totally novice Professional writer with a single work, revised by freelance editors, with no money for a serious promotion and with no intention of tricking anyone out of their money by pretending to sell what is not. People are entitled to know what to expect, don't you think?

I am correcting and updating the Amazon file of my novel if and whenever I discover a typo. Last updates corrected single ones. This is not a new edition, there is not going to be a new edition (apart from the Illustrated one, maybe) for people to buy and replace the former edition they bought. We are updating versions of apps all the time because bugs appear and are corrected. Should I guess programmers are unprofessional people who are trying to sell us their apps once and again? No, right? This is the same philosophy here. Nobody pretends to sell the same novel twice over to anybody.

However, I assumed one thing wrong: I thought if you bought an e-book, Amazon would send you the newest version when requested. They don't. You buy version v1.0, that's what you get, even if new buyers get v1.5. So regretfully, my corrections only affect future buyers. I didn't know that and I don't like it, neither as a writer nor as a reader.

Originally Posted by Cinisajoy

I want to acknowledge your last paragraph first.
Now if you really want to be a professional author, might I recommend Russell Blake's blog and J A Konrath's Guide to self publishing. Especially the earlier blog posts.

I'll keep the info, thank you.

Originally Posted by Cinisajoy

And just for your information, the only reason I am not a published author, though I do have a paper book, is because I don't have the $300 or so to get it ready for publication.

Well, that's your decision. I cannot tell if it's the right one for you, let alone why your decision should reflect on mine. I would tell you to finish the best you can, and if you respect what you did (I do), take it out. You will probably get thrashed around a little like I am being here (I am not implying it is neither fair nor unfair, only stating I am getting no good and some pretty bad feedback), but you would also get genuine comments like

"Riveter. A story that has held my attention longer than most e-books I've read so far. It grabs you and won't let you go from get-go! I only wish for future books like this from the author. For BROOOD!"

and the rush of endorphins you get when someone reads your book, gives you 5 stars, and writes this is worth all the rest.

[Cinisajoy]

Here is the thing.
As a reader I should not be able to tell an indie from a trade from a hybrid. I know some authors that have done all three and I have to say not a one of them came up with reasons why their books were not good.
As per your Oscar/Sundance analogy: actually most Sundance films are better in my opinion. Now that could have something to do with the founder of Sundance wanting to make good films on a cheaper budget. I do believe that the founder of Sundance did receive a Lifetime Achievement Award from the Academy. He also has one from the Screen Actors Guild. Oh and everyone at Sundance wants to present their very best work every time.

All I have to say now is good luck in your endeavors.

[Cinisajoy]

On my book, I would not ever want anyone to think oh this is obviously put together on a shoestring.
I want them to think oh great an author I just found. I wonder if she has more books.

Hmmm, let's see on advice:
Should I follow the advice of the authors that are now making 7 figures because they made sure their first book looked professional or should I listen to the guy that maybe makes enough for a car payment?

I do believe I will stick with the first guy since he seems to know how to make money in this profession.

Good luck.

[Cinisajoy]

Originally Posted by Peto

I explained my concept for pro but also accepted yours explicitly. You are of course entitled to expect a professional job. However, there must be some difference between indie and industrial, right? or you demand the same things from both? Do you expect to find the same movies at the Oscars and at Sundance? Because I expect and demand different things. Sundance is lower budget, more personal, intimate, honest. Most directors in these festivals want to make movies. Oscars are normally for massive superproductions that follow the commercial conventions that will get the highest income return. Most directors in this festival want to make money. That's all I am saying.

I am not dumb, I am not reckless. I run on a nonexistent budget.. I have written the novel to the best of my ability, proofread it till my eyes crossed, spent all I could afford on getting a professional finish with an edition by an external professional editor. And if you don't find this acceptable as a customer, you are right and shouldn't buy this novel. I have no tell on that. But there is no way I am going to try to hide the fat I am a totally novice Professional writer with a single work, revised by freelance editors, with no money for a serious promotion and with no intention of tricking anyone out of their money by pretending to sell what is not. People are entitled to know what to expect, don't you think?

I am correcting and updating the Amazon file of my novel if and whenever I discover a typo. Last updates corrected single ones. This is not a new edition, there is not going to be a new edition (apart from the Illustrated one, maybe) for people to buy and replace the former edition they bought. We are updating versions of apps all the time because bugs appear and are corrected. Should I guess programmers are unprofessional people who are trying to sell us their apps once and again? No, right? This is the same philosophy here. Nobody pretends to sell the same novel twice over to anybody.

However, I assumed one thing wrong: I thought if you bought an e-book, Amazon would send you the newest version when requested. They don't. You buy version v1.0, that's what you get, even if new buyers get v1.5. So regretfully, my corrections only affect future buyers. I didn't know that and I don't like it, neither as a writer nor as a reader.




I'll keep the info, thank you.



Well, that's your decision. I cannot tell if it's the right one for you, let alone why your decision should reflect on mine. I would tell you to finish the best you can, and if you respect what you did (I do), take it out. You will probably get thrashed around a little like I am being here (I am not implying it is neither fair nor unfair, only stating I am getting no good and some pretty bad feedback), but you would also get genuine comments like

"Riveter. A story that has held my attention longer than most e-books I've read so far. It grabs you and won't let you go from get-go! I only wish for future books like this from the author. For BROOOD!"

and the rush of endorphins you get when someone reads your book, gives you 5 stars, and writes this is worth all the rest.

On that rush of endorphins, I am a crafter by trade. My work has been praised many many times. Can't say I ever got a rush off of it.
I have also received fake praise at times, usually from someone that wanted something free. So little caveat, those great advance reviews may only be great so the person can get more free stuff.
I am assuming you used a service to find advance readers.