Paper books, ebooks and Copyright (UK)

[pdurrant]

Originally Posted by rbruce1314

So, let's get this clear: are you saying that in the case of the two scenarios below, both acts are equally criminal under UK law at the present?

Scenario1
BUY hard copy of book; scan pages into PC; make epub for later use.

Scenario2
BORROW chosen book from Open Library; copy pages into PC; make epub for later use.

If that is indeed the case, the law is even more stupid than I thought, because if both are legally just as bad, then one may as well go down the 'borrow/copy' route and save one's dosh....... - even though one is clearly more MORALLY right than the other. Hey Ho!!!

And on that topic, is DRM-stripping in itself an illegal act? I assume it is, but if not, that opens up another area for acquiring without format-shifting.........

Neither are criminal if done for personal use only. But they are both civil violations of copyright. The copyright holder would have to sue you. So yes, they are equally illegal. (I Am Not A Lawyer).

And yes, I'd agree that ethically the second is worse. But the first can be made equivalent if the paper book is sold on after making the copy.

Is DRM stripping illegal? If done for purely personal use, it's not a criminal offence. But could the copyright holder sue you? I suspect that they could.

But since there have been no cases, no-one's 100% sure what the law means in practice.

[janrey]

Recipes themselves cannot be copyrighted in the US at least, the whole book can, but not an individual recipe that contains ingredients and simple steps to put it together so long as you don't copy other aspects such as photos and unique words.

https://www.plagiarismtoday.com/2015...nd-plagiarism/

So posting that meatloaf recipe or sharing it with friends is totally ok.

[Cinisajoy]

Originally Posted by janrey

Recipes themselves cannot be copyrighted in the US at least, the whole book can, but not an individual recipe that contains ingredients and simple steps to put it together so long as you don't copy other aspects such as photos and unique words.

https://www.plagiarismtoday.com/2015...nd-plagiarism/

So posting that meatloaf recipe or sharing it with friends is totally ok.

Or in other words,
My roast chicken recipe can be copied as long as you change the shove a stick of butter down its throat to put a stick of butter in the opening/cavity/center.

[MikeB1972]

Originally Posted by pdurrant

It will all depend on OpenLibrary's licence agreement with the copyright holder.

As I understand it, they don't have one, they have a paper book of everything on the site, format shifting your own copy is legal in the US, loaning books out from a library is legal in the US so they reckon loaning out a eBook they made as if it is the paper book is perfectly legal.

So the 1 copy at a time is to keep it as close as possible to a normal library with paper books - so far no one has sued them

Originally Posted by rbruce1314

Ah - I see.

So, let's get this clear: are you saying that in the case of the two scenarios below, both acts are equally criminal under UK law at the present?

Scenario1
BUY hard copy of book; scan pages into PC; make epub for later use.

Scenario2
BORROW chosen book from Open Library; copy pages into PC; make epub for later use.

Even more importantly
Scenario3
Nick book from dodgy online file sharing site.
Scenario4
Convert book from legally bought DRM free epub to mobi.

Are equally criminal under UK law at the present.

Or to be more specific - equally a civil violation open to the same ability of the copyright holder to sue you for breach of copyright. Just rolls of the tongue doesn't it.

[rbruce1314]

Originally Posted by MikeB1972

As I understand it, they don't have one, they have a paper book of everything on the site, format shifting your own copy is legal in the US, loaning books out from a library is legal in the US so they reckon loaning out a eBook they made as if it is the paper book is perfectly legal.

So the 1 copy at a time is to keep it as close as possible to a normal library with paper books - so far no one has sued them



Even more importantly
Scenario3
Nick book from dodgy online file sharing site.
Scenario4
Convert book from legally bought DRM free epub to mobi.

Are equally criminal under UK law at the present.

Or to be more specific - equally a civil violation open to the same ability of the copyright holder to sue you for breach of copyright. Just rolls of the tongue doesn't it.

IF Open Library (linked with Archive.org now I believe) is US based then that logic is impeccable . . . .

BUT None of us here has ever dared to mention scenario 3 here - to do so would destroy the whole rationale of the thread as I'm sure the moderators will come in and tell us . . . . . . and IMHO that's a whole different ball-game. Those sites you mention are clearly breaching copyright by whatever moral/legal principles you apply!

And surely scenario 4 is merely a minor variation of 2?

In fact, since we're being picky/establishing principles, is epub<>mobi (or any other ebook format) actually a FORMAT shift? If it is, I guess every UK citizen who has ever read an ebook is now a criminal.

[pdurrant]

Originally Posted by rbruce1314

In fact, since we're being picky/establishing principles, is epub<>mobi (or any other ebook format) actually a FORMAT shift? If it is, I guess every UK citizen who has ever read an ebook is now a criminal.

It all depends on the licence by which you have gained access to a copy of the ebook.

[MikeB1972]

Originally Posted by rbruce1314

And surely scenario 4 is merely a minor variation of 2?

Well you can argue the legality of OpenLibrary in the US.

In the UK though, as format shifting is a breach of copyright and to loan library books you need to make Public Lending Right payments to the copyright holder, which I very much doubt Open Library does. Scenario 4 is completely different as scenario 2 is pretty much definitely a copyright violation if Open Library was UK based - as it's not then I think the geographical restrictions for foreign digital media sales may come into force instead, making it, in legal terms, complicated.

So I added Scenario 4

[Fiat_Lux]

Originally Posted by rbruce1314

BUT None of us here has ever dared to mention scenario 3 here

The primary issue is if the individual knows/realizes that it is a dodgy site.

You browse the app store for your mobile device.

A) You see an app "Billion Book Reader". A banner proclaims it to be add supported. There are a couple of five star reviews, proclaiming how easy it is to use, with no one star reviews. You download it, and discover that it has all six volumes of the Harry Potter series (^1). Furthermore, they are free.

Would you be surprised to discover that the books were being legally distributed, with the blessing of the publisher?

B) You see an app "Billion Book Reader". It costs $0.99, with a monthly fee of US$9.99. There are a couple of five star reviews saying that it is nice, and no one star reviews. The description explicitly states that there is no advertising. You decide to try it, and discover that it has most of the material you want.

Would you be surprised to discover that not a single title was offered with the approval, permission, consent, or authorization of the legal copyright holder?

Going to sites with a web browser, it is only slightly easier to determine if the content being offered is legitimate, or is pirated.



^1: I'm using Harry Potter as an example. I don't remember the specific titles that were available.

[crich70]

Originally Posted by Fiat_Lux

The primary issue is if the individual knows/realizes that it is a dodgy site.

You browse the app store for your mobile device.

A) You see an app "Billion Book Reader". A banner proclaims it to be add supported. There are a couple of five star reviews, proclaiming how easy it is to use, with no one star reviews. You download it, and discover that it has all six volumes of the Harry Potter series (^1). Furthermore, they are free.

Would you be surprised to discover that the books were being legally distributed, with the blessing of the publisher?

B) You see an app "Billion Book Reader". It costs $0.99, with a monthly fee of US$9.99. There are a couple of five star reviews saying that it is nice, and no one star reviews. The description explicitly states that there is no advertising. You decide to try it, and discover that it has most of the material you want.

Would you be surprised to discover that not a single title was offered with the approval, permission, consent, or authorization of the legal copyright holder?

Going to sites with a web browser, it is only slightly easier to determine if the content being offered is legitimate, or is pirated.



^1: I'm using Harry Potter as an example. I don't remember the specific titles that were available.

You never know with the web.

[pwalker8]

Originally Posted by crich70

You never know with the web.

Yep. There are some situations where it's pretty obvious that it's pirated, but one can find pirated ebooks on Amazon and Apple as well as places more known for dodgy ebooks, such as scribed.

[KyBunnies]

Originally Posted by pwalker8

Yep. There are some situations where it's pretty obvious that it's pirated, but one can find pirated ebooks on Amazon and Apple as well as places more known for dodgy ebooks, such as scribed.

I have even found pirated ebooks on Facebook.

[ZodWallop]

Originally Posted by Fiat_Lux

The primary issue is if the individual knows/realizes that it is a dodgy site.

You browse the app store for your mobile device.

A) You see an app "Billion Book Reader". A banner proclaims it to be add supported. There are a couple of five star reviews, proclaiming how easy it is to use, with no one star reviews. You download it, and discover that it has all six volumes of the Harry Potter series (^1). Furthermore, they are free.

Would you be surprised to discover that the books were being legally distributed, with the blessing of the publisher?

B) You see an app "Billion Book Reader". It costs $0.99, with a monthly fee of US$9.99. There are a couple of five star reviews saying that it is nice, and no one star reviews. The description explicitly states that there is no advertising. You decide to try it, and discover that it has most of the material you want.

Would you be surprised to discover that not a single title was offered with the approval, permission, consent, or authorization of the legal copyright holder?

Going to sites with a web browser, it is only slightly easier to determine if the content being offered is legitimate, or is pirated.



^1: I'm using Harry Potter as an example. I don't remember the specific titles that were available.

With the two "Billion Book Reader" scenarios you describe, I would be surprised to find they were scams (well, I wouldn't, because I look askance at everything), as the books are being offered in association with an app and it *seems* to conform to the streaming models seen elsewhere. Plus it has gotten into a reputable app store (Apple or Google Play).

On the other hand, a site with a download link is pretty clearly dodgy.

[Fiat_Lux]

Originally Posted by MeganButterfield

filling the smell of printing ink ... this is a whole ritual

There is an app for that. At least, if you use a Windows computer. It requires hooking up some additional hardware to your computer. The supplies are not quite as exorbitantly priced as printing ink, but for some scents, it comes close.

[MikeB1972]

Originally Posted by MeganButterfield

Regardless of how many pluses an e-book has, at the moment I prefer to read paper books. Yes, I agree that the transportation of paper books is not very convenient. But I like how I can leaf through pages, following from one chapter to another chapter, filling the smell of printing ink ... this is a whole ritual

Good for you

Err, why are you on an eReading forum