Paper books, ebooks and Copyright (UK)

[rbruce1314]

WARNING LONG POST

I hope I'm not too far off-topic here, but it comes directly from the discussion on 'Full Dark House'......

We all seem to be most careful only to advertise/link to official book sites - I've never seen a link to anything 'dodgy'.

I feel I'm among friends and experts here, so I hope one will have the answer - it concerns books/ebooks and copyright, in particular rights/laws applying to "second user". From everything I've read from Wikipedia and its references downwards, all copyright applies to FIRST USER only - once that has been bought legally, that user may dispose of it how he likes. That's been established by test cases and is enshrined in law; otherwise second-hand bookshops, charity bookstalls etc. wouldn't exist. My question refers to the obligations of THAT (second) user.


Situation:
1. I buy a second-hand copy of a book by a living author. Quite legal, it's now mine as a second user.
2. I make an e-copy by manually scanning all pages into my PC, OCRing it and producing (eventually...) a full epub book in my own chosen formatting. Longwinded but I can now put it into my Calibre library and downloaded it to my ereader. So Far so good.
3. What am I now allowed to do with it? The hard copy was mine (to do what I liked with); the epub is mine, so...........
4. Can I give it away (not interested in selling it!!)...
(a) to a friend/friends of mine. It feels legal since the ebook is wholly my work, but is it?
(b) by uploading it to a suitable site (I have no personal site)?


I hope you can see why I'm asking the question in so much detail: I myself have recently bought one or two books (by living authors) from Amazon and ebay (to complete collections where ebooks are not available) then made them into epubs for my use. I know I'm legal so far, but if one of the members here got to know which books I've done and asked me to email them a copy for their own personal use could I do that legally? And if so..........?.?.?

What a can of worms for a Thursday......

Anybody here have a definitive answer or would we all be guessing just as I am?

Back on Topic ........
BTW, for those not in the UK, 'Bryant and May' is the name of the premier long-standing safety-match manufacturer..........!!

[Fluribus]

Originally Posted by rbruce1314

WARNING LONG POST

I hope I'm not too far off-topic here, but it comes directly from the discussion on 'Full Dark House'......

We all seem to be most careful only to advertise/link to official book sites - I've never seen a link to anything 'dodgy'.

I feel I'm among friends and experts here, so I hope one will have the answer - it concerns books/ebooks and copyright, in particular rights/laws applying to "second user". From everything I've read from Wikipedia and its references downwards, all copyright applies to FIRST USER only - once that has been bought legally, that user may dispose of it how he likes. That's been established by test cases and is enshrined in law; otherwise second-hand bookshops, charity bookstalls etc. wouldn't exist. My question refers to the obligations of THAT (second) user.


Situation:
1. I buy a second-hand copy of a book by a living author. Quite legal, it's now mine as a second user.
2. I make an e-copy by manually scanning all pages into my PC, OCRing it and producing (eventually...) a full epub book in my own chosen formatting. Longwinded but I can now put it into my Calibre library and downloaded it to my ereader. So Far so good.
3. What am I now allowed to do with it? The hard copy was mine (to do what I liked with); the epub is mine, so...........
4. Can I give it away (not interested in selling it!!)...
(a) to a friend/friends of mine. It feels legal since the ebook is wholly my work, but is it?
(b) by uploading it to a suitable site (I have no personal site)?


I hope you can see why I'm asking the question in so much detail: I myself have recently bought one or two books (by living authors) from Amazon and ebay (to complete collections where ebooks are not available) then made them into epubs for my use. I know I'm legal so far, but if one of the members here got to know which books I've done and asked me to email them a copy for their own personal use could I do that legally? And if so..........?.?.?

What a can of worms for a Thursday......

Anybody here have a definitive answer or would we all be guessing just as I am?

Back on Topic ........
BTW, for those not in the UK, 'Bryant and May' is the name of the premier long-standing safety-match manufacturer..........!!

Buying a a book, used or not, does not give you the copyright. You may not make and distribute copies of it. Whether or not you charge for those copies makes no difference.

Used bookstores are ubiquitous. The store buys that one physical item, then sells that physical item to someone else. It does not violate copyright because nobody is making and distributing copies. If it were legal to make and distribute copies as a second purchaser, stores that did so would also be ubiquitous.

[pdurrant]

Originally Posted by rbruce1314

Situation:
1. I buy a second-hand copy of a book by a living author. Quite legal, it's now mine as a second user.
2. I make an e-copy by manually scanning all pages into my PC, OCRing it and producing (eventually...) a full epub book in my own chosen formatting. Longwinded but I can now put it into my Calibre library and downloaded it to my ereader. So Far so good.

[...]

BTW, for those not in the UK

"So Far so good"? Not in the UK. You have broken the law by making an electronic copy of the book.

There is no right in the UK to format-shift copyright works. You may not (legally) convert copyright CDs to play on your computer or phone or music player or tape deck. You may not (legally) scan physical copyright books to make electronic copies.

The government did at one point introduce a new law to give the public the right to format shift. The record companies sued the government, and forced that part of the law to be invalidated.

Techdirt summarises that mess quite well.


You're also entirely wrong about there being any difference in terms of copyright between buying a book new and buying a book second hand. Copyright isn't a contract between buyer and seller.

[rbruce1314]

OK - Thanks: what have we so far?

Applying what Fluribus quoted, according to his first sentence all second-hand bookshops, Amazon, ebay books ARE illegal. His second sentence CANNOT be used to make the illegal legal - can it??

I'm a scientist not a lawyer and getting very confused...... and if an author's works are said to be 'still in copyright' how does that work when some of the items are over 'death+70' and some not. If fluribus' statement is interpreted in the way he suggests, then an author CANNOT have a blanket copyright: if it's the item itself covered then the law ONLY applies to the thing you have in your hand, not even a second copy of the same thing in your other hand...... ? ? ?

And pdurrant seems to say the same thing here (I am UK BTW):

You're also entirely wrong about there being any difference in terms of copyright between buying a book new and buying a book second hand. Copyright isn't a contract between buyer and seller.

According to my understanding of that bit, if there's no difference, then the copyright law (printed inside each book) prevents you selling it on, new or second-hand. Or is that fluribus' whole point of being only the item itself that is covered?

As a humble scientist, if I'm wrong on that then I'm grateful to those of you who know so much better and accept what you say unconditionally.

..........which means that I'll not tell you which books I 'did', who I am, where I got them from or anything else - but I'll leave it to you to guess whether they're leaving my Calibre library . . . . . .

[cc_in_oh]

Originally Posted by pdurrant

"So Far so good"? Not in the UK. You have broken the law by making an electronic copy of the book.

There is no right in the UK to format-shift copyright works. You may not (legally) convert copyright CDs to play on your computer or phone or music player or tape deck. You may not (legally) scan physical copyright books to make electronic copies.

This sounds bizarre - it would be illegal to send my friend a meatloaf recipe from a copyrighted cookbook via phone or email, or to record myself reading a children's book to my child?

[pdurrant]

Originally Posted by rbruce1314

Applying what Fluribus quoted, according to his first sentence all second-hand bookshops, Amazon, ebay books ARE illegal.

His first sentence was "Buying a a book, used or not, does not give you the copyright." This is entirely true. You seem to be confused about what copyright means.

To own the copyright of a book means to own the legal monopoly on making copies of the book.

That is entirely different from owning a particular copy of a book and having the right to re-sell that particular copy.

Originally Posted by rbruce1314

According to my understanding of that bit, if there's no difference, then the copyright law (printed inside each book) prevents you selling it on, new or second-hand. Or is that fluribus' whole point of being only the item itself that is covered?

There's no such copyright law printed inside each book. Copyright law is law. It doesn't need to be put on every copy of something it applies to.

You may be thinking of the text often put in books something along the lines of "This book is sold under the condition that it shall not be lent or resold in any form of cover other than the original cover, and without a similar condition, including this condition, being imposed on any subsequent purchaser"

This is nothing to do with copyright. It's an attempt to make the terms listed part of the contact of sale, and isn't to prevent resale in general, but to prevent resale of a book (particularly paperbacks) after a retailer has ripped off the covers and returned the covers to the publisher for credit.

[pdurrant]

Originally Posted by cc_in_oh

This sounds bizarre - it would be illegal to send my friend a meatloaf recipe from a copyrighted cookbook via phone or email, or to record myself reading a children's book to my child?

Yes, sending that recipe is illegal. You might be able to argue that it's such a small portion of the entire work that it's OK, but I'm not sure that works when it's a stand-alone thing like a recipe.

And yes, recording yourself reading a children's book to your child is illegal. If you tried to sell that recording as an audio book, you'd probably find yourself in court.

Of course, doing any such format shifting for personal use is very unlikely to come to the notice of the copyright holders. And they are also extremely unlikely to take any legal action against you.

But the government did make such personal use format-shifting illegal. And then the record companies sued and got the regulation overturned.

So currently, in the UK, ripping CDs into iTunes or scanning paperbooks to ebooks is illegal.

[John F]

Originally Posted by pdurrant

Yes, sending that recipe is illegal. You might be able to argue that it's such a small portion of the entire work that it's OK, but I'm not sure that works when it's a stand-alone thing like a recipe.

And yes, recording yourself reading a children's book to your child is illegal. If you tried to sell that recording as an audio book, you'd probably find yourself in court.

Of course, doing any such format shifting for personal use is very unlikely to come to the notice of the copyright holders. And they are also extremely unlikely to take any legal action against you.

But the government did make such personal use format-shifting illegal. And then the record companies sued and got the regulation overturned.

So currently, in the UK, ripping CDs into iTunes or scanning paperbooks to ebooks is illegal.

What about stripping DRM from an ebook? Making a backup with DRM? Making a backup without DRM? Format shifting an ebook, say mobi to mobi? Mobi to epub? All this for the U.K.

Sorry for all the questions, but I forget this stuff after a while.

[JSWolf]

I know people loan/give away pBooks to friends/family to read. Nobody blinks. Now, if I had a pBook that I scanned and created an eBook, could I loan the pBook as long as I also loaned the eBook and didn't keep a copy?

[pdurrant]

Originally Posted by John F

What about stripping DRM from an ebook? Making a backup with DRM? Making a backup without DRM? Format shifting an ebook, say mobi to mobi? Mobi to epub? All this for the U.K.

Sorry for all the questions, but I forget this stuff after a while.

Ebooks are a very different proposition.

It is almost impossible to use an ebook without making copies. When you buy an ebook, you are really buying a license from the copyright holder allowing you limited copying rights.

You'd need to read your licence with the retailer to determine your legal rights. Some are extremely restrictive. For example, the Smashwords licence* doesn't allow anyone else at all to read ebooks you've purchased from Smashwords.

There is some legislation concerning DRM.

In particular, section 296ZA Circumvention of technological measures says that the copyright holder has the same rights against someone who removes DRM as they have against someone who makes unauthorised copies.





*"This ebook is licensed for your personal enjoyment only. This ebook may not be re-sold or given away to other people. If you would like to share this book with another person, please purchase an additional copy for each person. If you’re reading this book and did not purchase it, or it was not purchased for your use only, then please return to Smashwords.com and purchase your own copy. Thank you for respecting the hard work of this author."

[ekbell]

Originally Posted by pdurrant

Yes, sending that recipe is illegal. You might be able to argue that it's such a small portion of the entire work that it's OK, but I'm not sure that works when it's a stand-alone thing like a recipe.

Formulas and lists of ingredients (ie recipes)are not protected under copyright in the UK or US although creative blurbs are.

So that Mexican recipe can be sent as long as it contains no commentary

(best way to do so if you are not sure is to retype it using as few words as you can and then add your own notes as needed)

[Cinisajoy]

Originally Posted by rbruce1314

OK - Thanks: what have we so far?

Applying what Fluribus quoted, according to his first sentence all second-hand bookshops, Amazon, ebay books ARE illegal. His second sentence CANNOT be used to make the illegal legal - can it??

I'm a scientist not a lawyer and getting very confused...... and if an author's works are said to be 'still in copyright' how does that work when some of the items are over 'death+70' and some not. If fluribus' statement is interpreted in the way he suggests, then an author CANNOT have a blanket copyright: if it's the item itself covered then the law ONLY applies to the thing you have in your hand, not even a second copy of the same thing in your other hand...... ? ? ?

And pdurrant seems to say the same thing here (I am UK BTW):



According to my understanding of that bit, if there's no difference, then the copyright law (printed inside each book) prevents you selling it on, new or second-hand. Or is that fluribus' whole point of being only the item itself that is covered?

As a humble scientist, if I'm wrong on that then I'm grateful to those of you who know so much better and accept what you say unconditionally.

..........which means that I'll not tell you which books I 'did', who I am, where I got them from or anything else - but I'll leave it to you to guess whether they're leaving my Calibre library . . . . . .

No, because they are selling one copy of one book and they will no longer have that copy.
It appears you have confused copyright (what you are allowed to do with the text) with ownership.
99% of my physical books are used. I am in the US so under the fair use law, I would be able to make or have that company that does it make digital copies for me. I couldn't sell the digital copies and if I got rid of the physical copy, legally I would have to get rid of the digital copy.

[KyBunnies]

Originally Posted by ekbell

Formulas and lists of ingredients (ie recipes)are not protected under copyright in the UK or US although creative blurbs are.

So that Mexican recipe can be sent as long as it contains no commentary

(best way to do so if you are not sure is to retype it using as few words as you can and then add your own notes as needed)

Thanks so much for this. It is very good to know since I have been typing out recipes I find in books and sharing with friends/family after I try them.

[Cinisajoy]

At KY and Ekbell,
If you see recipes attached to my name, feel free to share them. I just want people to eat good food.

Oh and just so you know the recipe for Angel Food Cake is identical in Good Housekeeping, Better Homes and Gardens, and Betty Crocker. Only the pictures are different.

[SleepyBob]

And the pictures are probably copyrighted.