Lots of short chapters, yes or no?

[theducks]

I was not saying to drop the names, just that they are not as important as the numbers in this case.

[arjaybe]

What's short? Under 3,000 words? 2,500?

[JSWolf]

James patterson's books have the shortest chapters of any author I've read.

[gmw]

Originally Posted by theducks

I was not saying to drop the names, just that they are not as important as the numbers in this case.

I did realise that, and I would not drop them, but when the names are repeated as they would be in my current plans (as shown on a previous post) they don't actually add anything all that useful. If reader thinks: "I remember I was up to a chapter called Ruth", they will find 20+ chapters with that character name.

Originally Posted by arjaybe

What's short? Under 3,000 words? 2,500?

Since several of us have commented about James Patterson, I'll use him as an example. Kindle reports "When the Wind Blows" as 419 pages (my paperback edition is 468 pages). It has 127 chapters.

If we accept 350 words per page as an acceptable average, and use the Kindle page count that gives us:

3.3 pages per chapter
1155 words per chapter

In this thread we are seeing fairly universal acceptance that Patterson's books are examples of very short chapters. Take the "very" intensifier into account and I suggest an average under 6 or 8 pages (2000 or 2500 words) constitutes short chapters.

[JSWolf]

I've ben reading Robert B. Parker's Spenser series and he uses short chapters. Not James Patterson short but like 3-10 ADE pages.

[gmw]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

I've ben reading Robert B. Parker's Spenser series and he uses short chapters. Not James Patterson short but like 3-10 ADE pages.

Applying the same guestimate system that I did for Patterson, Parker's "Promised Land" is 228 Kindle pages with 29 chapters. So that's:

7.8 pages per chapter
2700 words per chapter

So my earlier 6-8 pages guess for "short" (as opposed to "very short") isn't too far off. Just checking

[ekbell]

Originally Posted by gmw

Thanks.

I guess I just don't like the aesthetics of a TOC like this that might span several pages. A nice TOC with proper chapter titles going over one or two pages is neat and elegant, but a simple list of chapter numbers (with or without the names) just looks a bit silly to my eye. But it does seem that some readers like to have the TOC in the front matter.

It's tempting to try and list the TOC in multiple columns to reduce the number of pages, but I'm always concerned that getting "clever" might run afoul of certain ereaders or user configurations. Anyway, I will cross that bridge when I come to it, there are a lot of rivers to cross before then.

Depending on the plot you could possibly bundle your chapters into parts or sections and use that to make the Table of Contents easier to navigate (I was reading the 2nd Alicia pov chapter in part 3 would be easier to remember then I was reading the 7th Alicia pov chapter)

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by gmw

Applying the same guestimate system that I did for Patterson, Parker's "Promised Land" is 228 Kindle pages with 29 chapters. So that's:

7.8 pages per chapter
2700 words per chapter

So my earlier 6-8 pages guess for "short" (as opposed to "very short") isn't too far off. Just checking

Promised Land is 157 ADE pages and 29 chapters. It starts on page 4 meaning an average of 5.27 pages per chapter.

[arjaybe]

Originally Posted by gmw

Since several of us have commented about James Patterson, I'll use him as an example. Kindle reports "When the Wind Blows" as 419 pages (my paperback edition is 468 pages). It has 127 chapters.

If we accept 350 words per page as an acceptable average, and use the Kindle page count that gives us:

3.3 pages per chapter
1155 words per chapter

In this thread we are seeing fairly universal acceptance that Patterson's books are examples of very short chapters. Take the "very" intensifier into account and I suggest an average under 6 or 8 pages (2000 or 2500 words) constitutes short chapters.

That makes sense. My average chapter length over three books is about 2,500 words. (2,800 2,100 2,800) If I'm under 2,000 it feels short and anything over 3,500 starts to feel long.

I like reading books with shorter chapters, or at least breaks in the chapters, so I feel comfortable starting "one more" before meeting some obligation.

[gmw]

Originally Posted by ekbell

Depending on the plot you could possibly bundle your chapters into parts or sections and use that to make the Table of Contents easier to navigate (I was reading the 2nd Alicia pov chapter in part 3 would be easier to remember then I was reading the 7th Alicia pov chapter)

Yes, I do expect the story to be broken into parts - at least 4. ... Things are still a bit up in the air because of the way I write (I don't outline), and the story has taken some very different turns over its life so far - another one just tonight (it's gone 3am here, and I really should be sleeping, but still worked up from writing - it's a buzz when it's working!). That's partly why I don't outline, I like it when my characters surprise me.

Originally Posted by JSWolf

Promised Land is 157 ADE pages and 29 chapters. It starts on page 4 meaning an average of 5.27 pages per chapter.

Yes. I do understand my calculations are very approximate. Without access to actual word counts the 350 words per page is only a very rough guess. Still, for a first approximation I think it's probably close enough.

Originally Posted by arjaybe

That makes sense. My average chapter length over three books is about 2,500 words. (2,800 2,100 2,800) If I'm under 2,000 it feels short and anything over 3,500 starts to feel long.

I like reading books with shorter chapters, or at least breaks in the chapters, so I feel comfortable starting "one more" before meeting some obligation.

I am inclined to agree that it may be better to err on the side of short rather than long, but when I could see myself hitting several 1-3 page chapters I started to wonder if it might not be good to go too short. This thread has been quite reassuring on that front.

[Cinisajoy]

I think Atlas Shrugged hits the record for longest chapters.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by Cinisajoy

I think Atlas Shrugged hits the record for longest chapters.

And it hits the record for one of the most boring books as well.

[Cinisajoy]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

And it hits the record for one of the most boring books as well.

I have been stuck at 45% for 2+ years. I used to try to read a chapter a week.

[E.M.DuBois]

The Chaos Walking Trilogy did somewhat the same thing (as well as Twilight, and other novels.) It was told from the first-person perspective of two characters, and transitioned seamlessly between them without hiccups to the pace of the plot. So that aspect can definitely be done.

Now, as for having lost of short chapters: there are pros and cons to it, like with any story-telling technique. The success of it depends of the story being told and its general structure. Now, with what you described as it being quite a good-sized novel, having so many short chapters may be impractical. If your characters are as diverse as you say, then I believe you’d have no trouble settling for longer chapters (12 - 20 pages or so.)

Personally, I plan out my chapters with omniscient third-person, so the reader knows everything the character knows, and when I want to hide something from the reader, I hide that person’s perspective. This makes it easy for me to transition from character to character within chapters. So, I don’t think going for lots of short chapters is the only way you have to go. You’ve got plenty of options.

I think the part you mention about the characters coming together presents you with a challenge specific to your story, and will require all of your creativity. But with a challenge comes the opportunity to create an artful style of revelation and conclusion that won’t be easily forgotten by your readers.

Originally Posted by BookCat

Something about brief chapters gives a book momentum, maybe because the reader thinks "just one more chapter, it's only a few pages," and the night ticks on, till dawn brings the realisation that they've been up all night reading your book.

This definitely is a pro, an advantage of having short chapters. On the other hand, I loved knowing that “The Council of Elrond” in LOTR was going to be 20+ pages long, and all they were doing was sitting around discussing exposition and setting outside of Frodo’s narrative. So, either choice appeals to different readers.

[Tarana]

I'm reading "Witch & Wizard" by James Patterson. I acknowledge that this book was written for the younger crowd, but the short chapters are really annoying to me.