Most reading programs/apps are garbage

[leebase]

I agree but for different reasons. I care very little about formatting. It's annoying to. It have scene changes as obvious but I read anyway.

My list of a annoyances :
1 - be as good as Stanza was. I still miss Stanza
2 - Change brightness by swiping up and down page...I frequently adjust brightness
3 - Handle book series in your book shelf
4 - Choice of attractive color schemes with extensive overrides
5 - Sync across devices
6 - Multi-platform
7 - Support OPDS
8 - Built in support for ebook stores commercial and free

Marvin meets all of these except no Android version
FBReader - my current choice on Android as it's the one I found that handles series

Android has been disappointing for me with it's reader apps

[Purple Lady]

Originally Posted by Barty

Feel free to take your own advice.

Most e-reader apps on Android break formatting. In particular, I hate it when space between paragraphs and first line indent aren't handled correctly so every paragraph looks the same and you can't tell where there is a scene break.

I also hate when scene breaks are broken. But an ebook needs to have other ways to show a scene break than just use extra space between paragraphs. An ebook needs some kind of visual marker for a scene break because depending on the font size you use, the scene break could be lost because the paragraphs are on different pages.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by Purple Lady

I also hate when scene breaks are broken. But an ebook needs to have other ways to show a scene break than just use extra space between paragraphs. An ebook needs some kind of visual marker for a scene break because depending on the font size you use, the scene break could be lost because the paragraphs are on different pages.

When the app doesn't respect text indents of 0 and the scene break is just space, it is very easy to lose when it occurs at the end of the page. Most section breaks that just have space use a top margin of 1em and then a text indent of 0. That's not the correct way to do it. The correct way to do a space only section break is a padding-top of 2em (needs enough space to know it's a section break) and then a text indent of 0. The top margin gets lost when it's at the end of the page. padding doesn't get lost. It carries over to the next page. So you see the space and can easily tell it's a section break.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by leebase

I agree but for different reasons. I care very little about formatting. It's annoying to. It have scene changes as obvious but I read anyway.

My list of a annoyances :
1 - be as good as Stanza was. I still miss Stanza
2 - Change brightness by swiping up and down page...I frequently adjust brightness
3 - Handle book series in your book shelf
4 - Choice of attractive color schemes with extensive overrides
5 - Sync across devices
6 - Multi-platform
7 - Support OPDS
8 - Built in support for ebook stores commercial and free

Marvin meets all of these except no Android version
FBReader - my current choice on Android as it's the one I found that handles series

Android has been disappointing for me with it's reader apps

Marvin is also one of the annoying apps but not as much. The problem with Marvin is that it has a publisher formatting option which shows the CSS layout, but has no overrides. You want overrides, you lose the publisher layout. For example, publisher override is the only way to see embedded fonts and sometimes that is important. So if you want some overrides, but not all, you can't have that. It's either or. The two modes should be combined with each override having an off. It's been mentioned (by many people since the first version Marvin was released) to the author and still he doesn't care.

[gmw]

Originally Posted by Purple Lady

I also hate when scene breaks are broken. But an ebook needs to have other ways to show a scene break than just use extra space between paragraphs. An ebook needs some kind of visual marker for a scene break because depending on the font size you use, the scene break could be lost because the paragraphs are on different pages.

Originally Posted by JSWolf

When the app doesn't respect text indents of 0 and the scene break is just space, it is very easy to lose when it occurs at the end of the page. Most section breaks that just have space use a top margin of 1em and then a text indent of 0. That's not the correct way to do it. The correct way to do a space only section break is a padding-top of 2em (needs enough space to know it's a section break) and then a text indent of 0. The top margin gets lost when it's at the end of the page. padding doesn't get lost. It carries over to the next page. So you see the space and can easily tell it's a section break.

JSWolf, the odd thing is that I knew this distinction but had not thought to apply it to my FirstParagraph style - so thanks for the reminder. The potential problem here is with exactly what you are complaining about: that not all readers support all aspects of CSS, or they may decide to override it. In which case you can be left with no break - and if the FirstParagraph style keeps its zero indent then not only may no breaking line appear, it can end up looking as if it's part of the previous paragraph.

Which would seem to bring us back to Purple Lady's suggestion that all breaks should have some visual confirmation of the break (something other than just a blank line). I typically use a centred "- - -" or "* * *" in a smaller font so that the break is apparent without being an eyesore. Ideally I would like to use pseudo-element (before/after content) to insert such text, but not all viewers support this capability.

It can be difficult to come up with styles that work well across all viewers. It seems to be necessary to assume the end user does not know CSS, and that an viewer app may do almost anything it wants with the CSS, and this forces the use of safe alternatives as far as possible, and these are not always ideal for end user maintenance.

[Sweetpea]

Originally Posted by Purple Lady

I also hate when scene breaks are broken. But an ebook needs to have other ways to show a scene break than just use extra space between paragraphs. An ebook needs some kind of visual marker for a scene break because depending on the font size you use, the scene break could be lost because the paragraphs are on different pages.

It's been a while since I've read a paper book, but isn't this problem the same for paper books? Sometimes you will have a new scene that starts on a new page. I don't see the difference with an electronic page...

Originally Posted by barryem

I'm with Cinisajoy. If the app makes it easy to read the text it's just fine.

Problem is, some apps don't respect spaces between scenes. And some apps add an empty line between each and every paragraph. In both of those cases, the app makes it very hard (for me) to read the text.

I don't use android anymore for reading, so I can't comment on that, but I want either an app to leave my styling alone, or allow me to set every single bit of the styling myself. In case of the first, I'll change any annoying styling problems with Calibre before putting it on the reader, in case of the second, I'll fiddle as much as needed to get the style I like and find comfortable. I do the first with my Kobo reader (except font, I installed my favourite font on the reader and made sure it always uses that) and the second on my phone (using Freda) and tablet (using Calibre ereader).

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by Sweetpea

It's been a while since I've read a paper book, but isn't this problem the same for paper books? Sometimes you will have a new scene that starts on a new page. I don't see the difference with an electronic page...

When a section break falls at the bottom of a page in a pBook, a section break marker is put in such as * * *. The problem is that when the publisher translates this book to eBook, in some cases, the section break marker is left in. That means that there are two different types of section breaks. Now take the app that doesn't respect indents of 0. We then end up missing some sections breaks except for those that have * * * where it fell at the bottom of the printed page.

[Sweetpea]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

When a section break falls at the bottom of a page in a pBook, a section break marker is put in such as * * *. The problem is that when the publisher translates this book to eBook, in some cases, the section break marker is left in. That means that there are two different types of section breaks. Now take the app that doesn't respect indents of 0. We then end up missing some sections breaks except for those that have * * * where it fell at the bottom of the printed page.

Any app that doesn't respect indents of 0 simply sucks. And won't be used by me anyway.

[kansaskyle]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

So you don't mind that these programs/apps decide the way get to see your book and you don't get to see the book the way it's coded? So if the program/app changes things too much, you'd be happy with that?

Power users/readers probably mind a great deal, and they spend a lot of time fixing what they don't like. They also spend time posting about it on forums.

The majority of people either out of ignorance or lack of desire simply deal with the annoyances, and just keep on reading. I am in this class.

As an IT guy, I know about CSS, but I don't take the time to fiddle with eBooks. I haven't even done much with Calibre other than converting all my Kindle books to ePub when I switched over to a Kobo reader.

There are a few ebooks I've checked out from the library recently with some things that are a bit jarring when I finish start reading, but they fade away once I get involved in the story.

[Purple Lady]

Originally Posted by gmw

JSWolf, the odd thing is that I knew this distinction but had not thought to apply it to my FirstParagraph style - so thanks for the reminder. The potential problem here is with exactly what you are complaining about: that not all readers support all aspects of CSS, or they may decide to override it. In which case you can be left with no break - and if the FirstParagraph style keeps its zero indent then not only may no breaking line appear, it can end up looking as if it's part of the previous paragraph.

Which would seem to bring us back to Purple Lady's suggestion that all breaks should have some visual confirmation of the break (something other than just a blank line). I typically use a centred "- - -" or "* * *" in a smaller font so that the break is apparent without being an eyesore. Ideally I would like to use pseudo-element (before/after content) to insert such text, but not all viewers support this capability.

It can be difficult to come up with styles that work well across all viewers. It seems to be necessary to assume the end user does not know CSS, and that an viewer app may do almost anything it wants with the CSS, and this forces the use of safe alternatives as far as possible, and these are not always ideal for end user maintenance.

I think that JSWolf's suggestion doesn't give enough space. I use small margins so it might be enough for me to notice, but if someone uses larger margins it might not be enough for them to notice. Also, even with my small margins I might notice that there is more space at the top of the page but think that it is just CSS done poorly or the reader not displaying well.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by Purple Lady

I think that JSWolf's suggestion doesn't give enough space. I use small margins so it might be enough for me to notice, but if someone uses larger margins it might not be enough for them to notice. Also, even with my small margins I might notice that there is more space at the top of the page but think that it is just CSS done poorly or the reader not displaying well.

What do you consider to be enough space? For me, I do think a 2em gap is enough. And given how most books are, a space at the top of the screen is noticeable to me.

[gmw]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

What do you consider to be enough space? For me, I do think a 2em gap is enough. And given how most books are, a space at the top of the screen is noticeable to me.

It's the "to me" part that's the problem. As Purple Lady pointed out, others may be using different margins which makes relative spacing less apparent.

And, as a matter of taste, 2em (equivalent to two blank lines) is too large for me when it occurs in the the middle of a page - which is most of the time.

Visible divider paragraphs (eg: - - - or * * *) aren't perfect, but they seem to be the best compromise that will work across all viewers. For those that want to edit CSS you can override the divider paragraph style to make it as big or small as you like, for those that don't (the majority) at least you can be assured that the break remains visible even if the app screws around with the CSS.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by gmw

It's the "to me" part that's the problem. As Purple Lady pointed out, others may be using different margins which makes relative spacing less apparent.

Yes, that would depend on what sort of top margin is used. But, how often is there space and then a paragraph with no indent at the top of the page in the middle of a chapter?

[Purple Lady]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

Yes, that would depend on what sort of top margin is used. But, how often is there space and then a paragraph with no indent at the top of the page in the middle of a chapter?

I've seen it plenty of times and been confused by it at first. No indent generally means it's the same paragraph. It seemed like a whole new topic started and I would have to go back to the previous page and look at it again to see if it is the same paragraph or not. I have also gone back a page because I thought I must have gone ahead two pages instead of one.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by Purple Lady

I've seen it plenty of times and been confused by it at first. No indent generally means it's the same paragraph. It seemed like a whole new topic started and I would have to go back to the previous page and look at it again to see if it is the same paragraph or not. I have also gone back a page because I thought I must have gone ahead two pages instead of one.

The problem is with a combination of things that can easily be fixed with a simple code change. When blank space is used as a section break, it's usually a top margin that's used to make this blank space. So when the blank space is at the bottom of the screen, it gets lost. If the top-margin is changed to padding-top, then the space is not lost and carries over to the next page so you have more empty space at the top of the page and then the next paragraph has no indent.

Try it and see if switching margin-top to padding-top when the book has a blank space for the section break works for you. I'd be interested to know.