The Vent and Rant Thread

[Katsunami]

Originally Posted by Rumpelteazer

(it really upset the librarians that she allowed me to read Stephen King's It in English when I was only 13)

So what.

I watched movies at 8 and read books at 12 that I wasn't supposed to. One of my greatest all-time pleasures are smashing people into walls using a race car (Carmageddon II) and to headshot Germans as a sniper (Return to Castle Wolfesnstein). I enjoy over-the-top gory and bloody games such as Phantasmagoria, and I find the most gruesome ways to explode pleople (Dragon Age: Origins). Back in the day, I loved killing people by shooting one limb at a time off of their bodies (Soldier of Fortune). I get a kick out of movies in which people are tortured and killed in the most horrific ways possible.

Actually, I just finished the Decepticon campain in War for Cybertron, in which I spend 20 minutes playing Megatron, pounding Omega Supreme into the ground using various types of weapons and rocket launchers.

My maniacal laughter while I did it made Megatron sound like a mewling kitten. Pity I didn't have a Transformers-sized chainsaw available to finish the job.

Apart from the fact that I have fun with that, it doesn't have any effect. I don't have the urge to go and kill / torture / dismember people in real life. (Most of the time, anyway ) Actually, in reality, I have trouble killing anything larger than an insect or a rat if it doesn't threaten me directly.

Some kids/people can handle shit. Others can't. It's for the parents to decide. They should know best. IMHO, I think everything will be fine as long as a child is taught what is fiction and make-believe and what isn't. In a computer game, it's OK to shoot people. In real life, it isn't. In movies, we have zombies and spiders as large as a horse, in real life we don't (I hope).

[Cinisajoy]

Originally Posted by Rumpelteazer

And then they wonder why (young) adults have no interest in reading. I was lucky to grow up with a mother who reads a lot for fun and always let me choose whatever I wanted to read (it really upset the librarians that she allowed me to read Stephen King's It in English when I was only 13). If you never get in contact with books you like the ones the schools want you to read are not exactly encouraging.

And many people I talked to read Flowers in the Attic when they were about 12.
The book was about children so it was ok for kids to read.
Now my dad's girlfriend wouldn't buy me Petals so I picked a different book and got the money from dad to buy Petals the next time I was at the store.

[DMcCunney]

Originally Posted by Toxaris

The market for Dutch books is much better than it looks. In fact, if we are talking about paper books, English books are harder to get (without the internet that is). One of the main issues is the fixed book price. Books that sell less copies are priced more or less the same as books that sell a lot. The reasoning behind that is that 'literature' still can get published even if it sells less. However, this only applies to 'literature'. For example the price of a good historical book is skyhigh.
I put 'literature' in quotes, since the what they call 'literature' is something that most people do not read (except forced on school) and is full of whining, sexuality or about the second war (and then combined with the whining and sexuality). This forces books to be priced so high as they are.

In the US, book prices for paper editions vary depending upon the book and the subject.

Bestsellers can be priced (relatively) low, because of the number printed and sold. Economies of scale kick in. Other titles will differ. If the market for a book is a few thousand as opposed to tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands, the cost for a copy will be far higher. The majority of costs in printing and binding are in setup and makeready - creating the plates from which the book will be printed, and setting up the job on the press and running test copies to assure proper reproduction. Once the job is on press, the incremental cost to produce more copies is a small fraction of the initial cost.

You need to set a price high enough to actually make money on the title (assuming that it actually sells), so the price for a small market item will be proportionately higher. And if the market is that small, the major trade publishers will pass. They can't possibly make money on the title.

And the issue publishers face is that sales are a crap shoot. All try to publish books that will sell. Most don't. They fail to find a market, die on the shelves, and get returned for credit. Publishers all cross appendages that enough titles will find a market and sell to cover the losses on the ones that don't earn out and cover their costs of production, and make them enough money to stay in business.

Sometimes they lose that bet. There used to be a US publisher called Lyle Stuart. Their stock in trade was scandal, and they published things like exposes and unauthorized biographies of public figures. The published about a dozen titles a year, printed scads, promoted heavily, and bet that a few would become bestsellers and keep them in business. Eventually, they hit a bad patch where they didn't have bestsellers and folded.

Publishing has had a quandary for decades. There are simply too many books chasing too few readers. Everyone knew there were too many books being published, but no one wanted to be first to trim their lines. Back when publishing was entirely print editions and readers discovered new books by browsing in bookstores, if you published less books, you lost display space and wouldn't get it back. The equation has changed with discovery online and eBooks, but there are still too many books chasing too few readers. Publishing has gone through wrenching waves of consolidation as imprints are folded or acquired by larger houses to achieve economies of scale, and publishing jobs are lost and authors dropped from contract.

Now we have self publishing/indie publishing, anyone can write and self publish a book (and it sometimes seems that everyone has. I comment these days that everyone and their dog has written and self-published a novel, and the dog's book is better. ). The supply of new books has increased by an order of magnitude. Back before the Internet Ate the World and publishing was all traditional print, I saw stats indicating there were something like a thousand new books a week being published in the US. Who would buy and read them all? Most did not get bought and read. Now it's more like a thousand new books a day. You have the same question, and the same answer, save that the bar has been dramatically raised. The number of books has dramatically increased. The number of readers has not. If you are writing and self publishing, assume that unless $DEITY works a miracle to order for you, your work will not sell. If you can't deal with that, you need to find another hobby.
______
Dennis

[Katsunami]

Originally Posted by DMcCunney

<snip>

Strange thing is: where do all these writers come from?

Surely it's much harder to write a book than to read one, so logically, even if only one in 100 people is a writer, it would be much easier to have more people to read than to write.

[DMcCunney]

Originally Posted by Katsunami

Books that were originally in Dutch, obviously; the only people *I* know who read fantasy in Dutch are people who are close to or over 50, and started in the 70's; the people for whom English is not a second language. (I've read a few paragraphs of Fantasy in Dutch today, and it's utterly atrocious. It reads as if a 12 year old is trying to make a writing assignment look good. Dutch isn't suitable for writing fantasy in, but that's maybe only my skewed opinion...)

The question is still how many want to read those books originally written in Dutch? The enormous number of titles produced in English and the enormous range of topics covered may mean that the native Dutch speaker fluent in English doesn't need a title originally written in Dutch to have something they want to read.

I suspect you could write effective fantasy in Dutch, but I'm not sure why anyone would make the effort.

Along that line, I had a go around electronically years back with a chap in Quebec. His people spoke a dialect of French since they descended from French settlers as well as speaking English. He was watching what seemed to be the gradual dissolution of his culture. Younger folks among his people had no particular interest in learning to speak/read/write Quebecois. Everything they were interested in and wanted to do was done in English. Why bother to learn a dialect of French? I understood his feelings, but didn't see the trend changing.

I don't know if it's still the case, but when I was in high-school in the 90's, English was a *required* subject to be passed in final exam, along with Dutch. It was impossible to graduate if you didn't pass English.

I'd be surprised if it wasn't still the case. English is the de facto international language, and the Netherlands has always been active in international business and trade. (Once upon a time, New York City was Nieuw Amsterdam when the Dutch originally settled there. As far as I can tell, there was no friction when the English took over. As long as the Dutch settlers could continue to do business, the regulations didn't change dramatically, and the taxes stayed within reason, who nominally governed the area was a matter of indifference to them. )

Therefore everybody in my generation speaks, writes and understands at least basic English (if they kept it up at least a little bit). With people one generation older or younger, English can be quite sketchy sometimes.

The older generation wasn't force fed it. The newer generation is still learning. But basic fluency in English is likely a necessity.
______
Dennis

[DMcCunney]

Originally Posted by Katsunami

Strange thing is: where do all these writers come from?

I'm not certain. They seem to breed like cockroaches.

I interact with the self-publishing crowd elsewhere, and it reminds me of the old joke about two Chinese trapped at the bottom of a well getting rich taking in each other's laundry. The folks they seem to feel are most likely to buy their work are other self-published authors.

Surely it's much harder to write a book than to read one, so logically, even if only one in 100 people is a writer, it would be much easier to have more people to read than to write.

As mentioned, there are something like a thousand new books a day being issued now. Someone is writing them.

Speaking personally, I can't be bothered to spend the effort looking for the odd nuggets of gold hidden in the enormous amount of slurry that is self-publishing. I have way too many traditionally published books I need to find time to read. I have none to spare panning for fool's gold on the Internet.

The biggest service traditional publishers perform is rejecting work. They need to publish stuff that can sell, and are fussy about acquiring stuff they think can sell. It might not be to my taste, but it's unlikely to be "gouge eyes out with spoon after reading" bad.

The Internet is now the largest slush pile in the history of publishing. There's a reason it's called "slush", and most houses no longer look at unagented submissions. Now the long suffering readers get to read slush and discover first hand why editors don't want to.
______
Dennis

[Katsunami]

Originally Posted by DMcCunney

The older generation wasn't force fed it. The newer generation is still learning. But basic fluency in English is likely a necessity.

Well... I actually speak, understand, and read German as well (but don't write it too well without Google/dictionary and some grammar rules at hand), and I speak my local dialect. I was basically kicked out of college (studying to become a teacher in English) for having 'bad pronunciation,' with too much influences of my dialect in it.

When I worked in IT Support, I was on the English (UK) line. Never got any comments with regard to my pronunciation, apart from: "I think you're not from the UK, is that correct?" When I had people guess, they often guessed Denmark, or Sweden, but never The Netherlands, so I obviously don't have the typical "Dutch Engish" pronunciation.

To be honest, I cringe when I hear the pronunciation of Dutch people who think they are speaking English very well, and I (still) believe my pronunciation is quite superior to most of them, apart from maybe the best English teachers.

"I have been to Greece three times" probaly sounds like "Ai hèf bien toe Gries tree times," and a word such as "here" is often literally pronounced as "hier" (exactly like the Dutch version).

In my impression, many Dutch people pronounce English as if they're saying English words with Dutch pronunciation; and while my pronunciation (and English in general) aren't perfect either, I like to believe I'm not quite *that* bad.

The things making me cringe the most are:

'here' sounds like 'hier' (Dutch word for 'here')
'three' sounds the same as 'tree' (no differences made between 't' and 'th')
No difference between 'bet, bed, bad, bath' (no audible difference between 't' and 'd')
No difference betweeen 'pen' and 'pan'
No difference between 'warm' and 'worm'
No difference between 'worked' and 'walked' (both often pronounced as 'walked')

There are many more words which should sound different but don't, or have the same pronunciation as a (similar) Dutch word.

Those things were literally *rammed* into my brain when I was in high-school.

[Rumpelteazer]

Originally Posted by DMcCunney

The question is still how many want to read those books originally written in Dutch? The enormous number of titles produced in English and the enormous range of topics covered may mean that the native Dutch speaker fluent in English doesn't need a title originally written in Dutch to have something they want to read.

This is a problem for Dutch publishers. It now happens regularly that a book originally written in English gets released in Dutch at the same time, or even before the English language release. Because if the English is released first Dutch people will buy that and less Dutch translations will be sold.

Sent from my SM-T713 using Tapatalk

[Toxaris]

Originally Posted by DMcCunney

I don't know if it's still the case, but when I was in high-school in the 90's, English was a *required* subject to be passed in final exam, along with Dutch. It was impossible to graduate if you didn't pass English.

It usually is still the case. There are a number of subjects you are required to do in the final exam. Dutch of course one and a foreign language is a second. On most schools the foreign language cannot be chosen and is English by default. In theory you can also choose French, German or even Spanish or Chinese (Mandarin), but this depends on the school.
I believe that (basic) Math is also a mandatory subject since a couple of years.

[issybird]

Originally Posted by Katsunami

To be honest, I cringe when I hear the pronunciation of Dutch people who think they are speaking English very well, and I (still) believe my pronunciation is quite superior to most of them, apart from maybe the best English teachers.

Sheesh! You're being awfully hard on your countrymen! Kudos to all non-native-Anglophones who get along in English.

If Americans in general (including me) could speak another language half as well as the Dutch speak English, we'd get along far better in the world.

[covingtoncat73]

Originally Posted by issybird

Sheesh! You're being awfully hard on your countrymen! Kudos to all non-native-Anglophones who get along in English.

If Americans in general (including me) could speak another language half as well as the Dutch speak English, we'd get along far better in the world.

We would! A great grandmother of mine was Swiss and French Creole. She knew 5 languages. Sadly, I was educated in public K-12s and Universities in the latter 20th century. I only know English but would love to be multi-lingual.

[Hitch]

Today's Daily Winner, Winner, Chicken Dinner, at my website's ONLINE chat. (This is verbatim, the only thing that's been removed or altered is the person's name.)

Question: How do you look up not so ordinary girl ballerina weather girl

ME: Hi, XXXX. I'm sorry--is that a book? "Not So Ordinary Girl?"

Yes

ME: Have you looked on Amazon? Here?: https://www.amazon.com/Ballerina-Wea...dp/1442474017/
That's the children's book you're asking about, right?
And this: https://www.amazon.com/Ballerina-Wea.../dp/B008J2GEDI is the Kindle version.

No let me try that and I will come back and let you know okk is that okk

ME: (Becoming a bit antsy): Yes, but, XXX, we're not an eBook store. Not retail. We are the people who MAKE the Kindle books, from publishers and authors and the like. We don't have a storefront that sells eBooks. I think that's what you are looking for, right? To buy a copy of the book? If so, you'll find it on Amazon.

No I just want to. Download it

Me: (To myself: ahhhhhhhh....)
Oh, you mean...you want to find it on the web, for free? Is that what you mean?

Yes

Me: If that's what you mean, you'll need to get a proxy server and go over to the Dark Web.

(I add, for good measure, and, well...just in case someone out there is listening....):
We don't support or condone piracy, which takes money out of the pocket of the author and the publisher. The book is less than $6.00 on Amazon, and if you have a computer or smartphone, I'm sure you can afford that much. Good day to you.

(I hang up the Chat).

One minute later: RING RING RING (that's my chat line; you can hear it through the airless void of space on Jupiter, trust me...)

Question: How do you look up not so ordinary girl ballerina weather girl

ME: (Now getting irked): Why are you asking me the same question? I gave you the link on Amazon. You can go there and buy it for under $6.00USD.

I disconnect the chat.

One minute later: RING RING RING

Question: What is the website to find the book so I can download it that all I want to know pls

ME (now REALLY EFFING IRKED): I'm sorry. You have to go to the DARK NET. You do that with a PROXY SERVER. I don't know which pirate sites have the book. Go look up how to use a proxy server and how to browse the DarkNet. That's all I can tell you, because that's all I know.

But, wait! There's MORE!!!...

ANNOYING ASSHOLE REPLIES: Hey what is a proxy server
and a dark net
and a dark net
????

ME: GOOGLE IT! I'm sorry, but I'm not the Information booth at the mall. If you google it, you can find very good articles that will tell you how to steal the book. Good luck. Now, I''m going to disable the chat, because I cannot help you, and you keep pinging me.
...and he starts to WRITE BACK. Gets halfway into "yeah, but how do ..." and I disconnected the chat.

****************************

I finally was forced to end all THREE of his chats, because he kept reopening them, and had to turn my entire Chat case routing OFF, which disables our Chat button (Chat Now!) on the site. In our busiest season.

(I should have asked him for his contact info, under the guise of sending him a free copy of the book, and then told him I was sending it to The FEDS. The magic Men in Ink, the copyright violation police. MWAHAHAHAHAHAH...)

What a total DOUCHE. I mean....the whole thing was dumb enough, but then, he wants me to school him in proxy servers? All this to what, NOT spend $6 on his kid? For )(*&^%$#@! SAKE!

And, not to mention, importuning someone he's never met? After I initially tried to be nice, and help out some guy looking for a book for his daughter?


People. I'll never understand them if I live to be a thousand. NEVER.

Hitch

[badgoodDeb]

I'm surprised you even bothered to mention "Proxy servers" and "dark net". I'd have just told him Amazon. Period.

Or the publisher's website.

[Freeshadow]

it's the whole I'm a victim of my circumstances mentality that runs rampant.

No news my dear:
nobrain:"You can't call him an a§hole, he's disabled"
Me: "I can and will if he behaves like one. Being disabled gives you no carte blanche on behavior. I know that. I'm too as you might have noticed."

Some special snowflakes need a warming reception.

Originally Posted by Hitch

(I should have asked him for his contact info, under the guise of sending him a free copy of the book, and then told him I was sending it to The FEDS. The magic Men in Ink, the copyright violation police. MWAHAHAHAHAHAH...)

^That

[Katsunami]

Originally Posted by Toxaris

It usually is still the case. There are a number of subjects you are required to do in the final exam. Dutch of course one and a foreign language is a second. On most schools the foreign language cannot be chosen and is English by default. In theory you can also choose French, German or even Spanish or Chinese (Mandarin), but this depends on the school.

I wonder what idiot determine which languages you can choose.

One of the government websites says this:

Spanish
Italian
Russian
Arabic
Turkish

And on some schools:
Chinese
Frisian (Fries)

While I can get Italian and Spanish, I loath the fact that Russian, Arabic, Turkish and Chinese are possible languages to choose from. What use do we have of them here in the Netherlands? Every other Moroccan or Turk over here will choose Arabic or Turkish as their "second" language. Russian and Chinese are of no use here.

What if I wanted to do Japanese? Or Swedish, Danish, Norwegian (Norsk?) or Finnish?