Why e-books?

[ZodWallop]

Originally Posted by ratinox

I will give them a try.

One way or another, he'll find the books he's looking for. It still doesn't solve the issue. If an e-book version is not legally available but there is a fan created version, people will download it.

Passing moral judgements on those people is each individual's prerogative of course. I'm not saying that I have all the answers. I'm just trying to point out that it is the reality.

Publishers like those Barry mentioned that have a book but refuse to release an e-version and refuse to let someone else do it are just encouraging piracy.

[Cinisajoy]

Originally Posted by ZodWallop

One way or another, he'll find the books he's looking for. It still doesn't solve the issue. If an e-book version is not legally available but there is a fan created version, people will download it.

Passing moral judgements on those people is each individual's prerogative of course. I'm not saying that I have all the answers. I'm just trying to point out that it is the reality.

Publishers like those Barry mentioned that have a book but refuse to release an e-version and refuse to let someone else do it are just encouraging piracy.

Really. It does not encourage honest people. If I cannot get a particular book in the format I want. Then I won't get the book. There are other books. So no need to steal.

It isn't like the last turkey available for Christmas.

[ZodWallop]

Originally Posted by Cinisajoy

Really. It does not encourage honest people. If I cannot get a particular book in the format I want. Then I won't get the book. There are other books. So no need to steal.

Good for you. But you aren't the majority or Napster never would have become a thing.

And at least one writer (Walter Jon Williams) has benefited from rabid fan piracy: http://boingboing.net/2011/05/15/wal...-williams.html

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by ZodWallop

Good for you. But you aren't the majority or Napster never would have become a thing.

As I said a while ago, there are (and always have been) people with a misguided sense of entitlement. I certainly don't believe they represent the majority of readers, or even a significant minority. Most people who are serious readers have more respect for authors than to steal from them.

[ZodWallop]

Originally Posted by HarryT

As I said a while ago, there are (and always have been) people with a misguided sense of entitlement. I certainly don't believe they represent the majority of readers, or even a significant minority. Most people who are serious readers have more respect for authors than to steal from them.

Yeah, but I do see a distinction between stealing something that is already available and something that is otherwise unavailable.

Does Lee Gruenfeld make any more money off of you buying a used book from Abebooks than he does off of someone else downloading an amateur scan?

[ratinox]

Originally Posted by ZodWallop

And at least one writer (Walter Jon Williams) has benefited from rabid fan piracy: http://boingboing.net/2011/05/15/wal...-williams.html

WJW is one of my favorites. This adds to it.

Watch Global Metal if you can find it (Netflix had it but I don't know if they still do). One of the interviews is with Lars Ulrich of Metallica, poster child for "Napster is Bad". In it he somewhat sheepishly admits that his band overreacted to Napster. He also says that anything which gets his music to fans in repressive nations is a good thing.

[Cinisajoy]

Originally Posted by ZodWallop

Yeah, but I do see a distinction between stealing something that is already available and something that is otherwise unavailable.

Does Lee Gruenfeld make any more money off of you buying a used book from Abebooks than he does off of someone else downloading an amateur scan?

The author has already got his share off the paper copy. He gets absolutely nothing from a stolen copy.
How about if I felt entitled to your house? Should I be able to just take it?
Other than the monetary value, please explain the difference between stealing an ebook and stealing a house.

[ZodWallop]

Originally Posted by Cinisajoy

The author has already got his share off the paper copy. He gets absolutely nothing from a stolen copy.
How about if I felt entitled to your house? Should I be able to just take it?
Other than the monetary value, please explain the difference between stealing an ebook and stealing a house.

Your argument is a false equivalence and I'm not going to waste my time on it.

If you buy a used book from anywhere, neither the publisher or author or anyone else associated with the production of that book got a penny from you. Is that theft?

And again, I am referring to books that are out of print. I'm not going to defend downloading a copy of 'Salem's Lot any more than I would defend stealing a copy from Barnes and Noble.

[Cinisajoy]

Originally Posted by ZodWallop

Your argument is a false equivalence and I'm not going to waste my time on it.

If you buy a used book from anywhere, neither the publisher or author or anyone else associated with the production of that book got a penny from you. Is that theft?

And again, I am referring to books that are out of print. I'm not going to defend downloading a copy of 'Salem's Lot any more than I would defend stealing a copy from Barnes and Noble.

Yes, they got their money with the original buyer. You can resell property because the original seller got the money they wanted. So no, buying USED property is not theft by any stretch of the imagination.
Now on the other part of your argument, you said that not having the ebook available then it is ok to steal a copy. Whether the book is in print or out of print makes no difference.
Are you saying it would be OK to steal Cinisajoy's memoirs because she decided to pull the book and it is no longer available but not ok to steal a Stephen King.

Either you are ok with all pirating or you are ok with none. You can't have it both ways.

[ZodWallop]

Originally Posted by Cinisajoy

Now on the other part of your argument, you said that not having the ebook available then it is ok to steal a copy.

I'm saying that lack of availability encourages it.

Back to Stephen King as an example, he pulled one of his books: Rage. He had good, moral reasons for doing so and I don't believe there has ever been an e-book of it (I could be wrong. This occurred before I was into e-books myself). I would not be surprised to find fan-scanned copies of Rage floating around in the ether.

Does that mean that Stephen King's only recourse is to list the book again? No.

I admit, I don't have the answer. I'm just pointing out what happens.

Originally Posted by Cinisajoy

Either you are ok with all pirating or you are ok with none. You can't have it both ways.

That is your opinion and you are entitled to it. Not everyone sees things the same way you do.

As for me, I would be less mad at someone for downloading a freebie amateur scan of some long out of print Frank Yerby book than I would with someone who is pirating some recent best seller.

[jhowell]

Originally Posted by ZodWallop

If you buy a used book from anywhere, neither the publisher or author or anyone else associated with the production of that book got a penny from you. Is that theft?

No. Those books were sold with the condition that the could be re-sold, giving added value to the buyer.

Anyone trying to legitimately sell used copies of out-of-print books is harmed (slightly) by the pirating of those books.

[ZodWallop]

Originally Posted by jhowell

Anyone trying to legitimately sell used copies of out-of-print books is harmed (slightly) by the pirating of those books.

That's not my problem. No more so than your buying e-books does harm to those same stores.

[meeera]

Originally Posted by Cinisajoy

How about if I felt entitled to your house? Should I be able to just take it?

No, but you're more than welcome to copy it.

[radius]

Originally Posted by ZodWallop

Publishers like those Barry mentioned that have a book but refuse to release an e-version and refuse to let someone else do it are just encouraging piracy.

The thing is though, that publishers aren't doing this out of spite. It costs them money to make and market ebook editions and they need to recoup that somehow. With modern publishing workflows, where there is an existing electronic compy of a work, this is mitigated somewhat, but for older works they need to scan, proof, "typeset", possibly commission more modern cover and so on before they even market. I think it is mostly worth it for authours that have a large-ish body of work so that they can spread the marketing costs over multiple books or over a series.

[ZodWallop]

Originally Posted by radius

The thing is though, that publishers aren't doing this out of spite. It costs them money to make and market ebook editions and they need to recoup that somehow. With modern publishing workflows, where there is an existing electronic compy of a work, this is mitigated somewhat, but for older works they need to scan, proof, "typeset", possibly commission more modern cover and so on before they even market. I think it is mostly worth it for authours that have a large-ish body of work so that they can spread the marketing costs over multiple books or over a series.

Understood. But there are two things to consider:

1. I have a friend that scans books for a living. There is cost, but it isn't prohibitive.

2. If the publisher still considers it not to be worthwhile, they could license the books to a smaller publisher or kick them back to the author

I'm sure these answers are naive to someone in the industry. But in the absence of either of these, bootleg copies, well, they don't flourish, but they sprout up.

On the plus side, as I have mentioned, there are cases where bootleg copies of e-books have been used as the basis for later, legitimate e-book releases.