Cheaper e-books will kill us, says publisher

[phenomshel]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

I just took the Word document of Richard Herley's eBook Refuge and converted it to LRF using Book Designer. Took my maybe 10 minutes to do so.

Most books without any sort of complex formatting are rather easy to convert to eBook form from the original source document which is usually some sort of word processing document such as from Word. Now, if I want to go to Mobipocket from here, it would take maybe 15-20 min.

Well, now this is what I thought...but was told I was wrong. I'm confused. So maybe from a draft the writer sends in to the publisher and still needs to be proofed and corrected, then yes the time would of course be longer, but I was, like you, referring to a book in digital format, ie: a Word document.

[nelsonescorcio]

I fell my intelligence insulted by this guy's supposed "points".
Therefore, I prefer not making any more comments on this.

Regards
Nelson

[astra]

Cheaper e-books will kill us, says publisher

R.I.P.

[tompe]

Originally Posted by BuddyBoy

Well, you are welcome to develop, test, certify and support an application system that does, and provide it for free and support it for free if you'd like. I'm sure one or two mid-sized publishers would be willing to re-tailor their workflow and input files to meet your systems needs providing the system was robust and suitable for an enterprise solution, and free. Providing conversion of the input files from the original manuscript into your input format doesn't end up equating to twice as much work as they are currently doing.

Nobody has said there will be no initial costs. My argument was that after the initial costs the cost per book will be similar to producing only paper versions. In this case latex2html already exists and for people that need to do a conversion it can probably be tweaked to produce good output.

[llasram]

Originally Posted by phenomshel

Well, now this is what I thought...but was told I was wrong. I'm confused. So maybe from a draft the writer sends in to the publisher and still needs to be proofed and corrected, then yes the time would of course be longer, but I was, like you, referring to a book in digital format, ie: a Word document.

Go with what starrigger says -- he's a published author who has been through this. What John is describing is a quick-and-dirty conversion of an already edited text. A quality published result will require time/effort/expense for editing, book design, and design implementation/variation in target formats.

[Phogg]

Originally Posted by astra

R.I.P.

Best post of the whole thread.

[Shaggy]

Originally Posted by starrigger

I'm sorry, but this is simply wrong, and that's one reason there's so much misunderstanding between the e-reading audience and the people putting out ebooks (or not putting out ebooks). Taking an author's digital file and turning it into a properly formatted ebook is NOT a matter of a few seconds, or even a few steps. It's a time-consuming process that involves inputting minute editing corrections, formatting changes, and going through a different conversion process for every one of those damn ebook formats, and then finding things that are screwed up in the process and fixing them.

Given the quality of a lot of the ebooks I've purchased, they're certainly not putting a lot of time into them. It may take more time to do them well, but many of them are pretty much scanned and then sold "as is" with all sorts of OCR and formatting problems. The high cost of those ebooks certainly had nothing to do with time consuming editing/formatting.

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

Heh.

Sometimes it's good to come to a discussion late. Now I don't need to add anything that hasn't already been said.

[ProDigit]

Originally Posted by rhadin

It isn't more work (or not a great deal more) than creating the paper version, it is the the same (or some more) but it is different so it is nearly like starting with raw manuscript again. No matter how it is done, it isn't as easy as simply choosing a convert-to-ebook option in a dropdown menu. It may be less complex with a straight-text novel, but it is certainly neither quick nor easy for nonfiction books.

I think the formatting of a real book takes much more time than formatting an ebook!
Pictures, text they all have to fit on the paper size, while an ebook device generally makes use of as much space they have on the 800x600 screen; and some ebook formats don't even support "picture left,center, or right of text".
So unless pictures are small they generally are maximized (shrunk to screen size).
The layout is easier.
With a Pbook author also needs to format the book.
Then it goes to the publisher which uses a program that will physically show every page on the screen.
Sometimes an author may want to edit the text in order for the last line of a paragraph to fit on the page.
An extra page over 5.000 pbooks is a lot of money for 1 sentence.
On an ebook it really does not matter if a paragraph ends with 1 line on a page; it is even desired when a new chapter begins!(to see some whitespace).

So in both cases there is a program used to 'format' the book to fit the reader/pbook's physical viewing area's dimensions.

If an error happens, on an ebook it's a matter of minutes to correct and publish a new version. It will change almost immediately to the customer who buys the book online.

On a pbook, a new print needs to be developed, printed again, stock needs to be supplied, and what to do with the (say) 600 first edition prints that have this error?
If it's a minor error they'll be sold with a little loss (say $1off).
If it's a real big error overlooked when the first print was printed, it'll probably be sold for many $$ less, or be recycled into a new book.

[ProDigit]

Originally Posted by llasram

Go with what starrigger says -- he's a published author who has been through this. What John is describing is a quick-and-dirty conversion of an already edited text. A quality published result will require time/effort/expense for editing, book design, and design implementation/variation in target formats.

I don't really agree.
If you already need to do this for a P book, it also needs to be done for an ebook.
Even with a pbook there exists an electronic version, that in itself is (supposed to be) complete.
Creating an ebook from there only is a matter of 30-60 minutes.
My record stays at creating 5 ebooks per hour in LRF.

Since LRF is very limited in possibilities (Title,subtitle, Italic, and Bold text, optional picture here or there), it won't take lots of time to create a conversion.
Most of the time one has a standard set of settings one uses to create a book anyways.

[jridley]

Mr Justus
Allow me to present a concept that you may have missed about business:

You will deliver a product that people want to buy, for a price that they are willing to pay, or you will go out of business. It's up to you to figure out how to do that. Whining about how it's kinda hard isn't in your job description.

I am looking forward to buying reasonably-priced, non-DRM'd ebooks. Either from you, or from the publisher that replaces you when you refuse to move with the times and go out of business.

[jridley]

Originally Posted by starrigger

Jon, I don't think that's a representative illustration. When I gave you my files of The Chaos Chronicles for conversion to LFR, I had already spent many, many hours preparing those files so that they'd be in proper shape for conversion. And even at that, I didn't proofread them as thoroughly as I should have, as witness the number of errors that were brought to my attention after they were up. (And I just heard from a reader--there are still some in there!)

Is this work that does not have to be done for normal print? Is it work that has to be done separately for each ebook format? If so it seems like the solution is to design a better workflow, not do a ton of work. I can't believe that every ebook format is so wildly different from every other one that many hours of work has to be done for every format, given that it's already been done for one format.

Surely proofreading needs to be done for ANY format, including dead trees?

[Richard Herley]

The crux of the matter is this -- what does the publisher actually do for his money? Whether he's selling a pbook or an ebook, he has to invest in the following:

1. Sourcing the "manuscript"
2. Editing it
3. Converting it into some form which can be mass produced
4. Selling it to middlemen
5. Distribution to middlemen
6. Promotion

Stages 1, 2, 4 and 6 probably require the much same sort of investment whether or not the finished product is electronic.

Stages 3 and 5 will of course be much cheaper with ebooks.

Now, as to Stage 1, most publishers these days get their scripts straight from literary agents. They won't even read a submission from an author. Nearly all the cost of finding new talent is borne by agents.

Stage 2. Some authors need a lot of help with editing; others need very little, and indeed find the editing process largely a waste of time. Those authors who need help can hire a freelance editor. Since no middleman (i.e. the publishing company) is involved in such a relationship between the author and editor, the cost is inherently much less.

Stages 4 and 5. Buying ebooks from middlemen makes no sense at all. Middlemen (i.e. bookstores) only make sense in the case of pbooks.

Stage 6. Unless an author is already famous, publishers are reluctant to spend money on a promotion campaign. They know that word-of-mouth is what makes a new author sell. The big budgets are reserved for promoting the work of celebrity authors, politicians, and the like, all of whom are guaranteed mainstream media exposure. These days this is, of course, nuts. All the celebrity author needs is to put the word out himself, and to have a website where fans can get the latest news.

Back to Stage 1. It is extremely hard for a newbie author to find an agent. If he/she finds one at all, there is no guarantee that the agent will be any good. Many are worse than useless, and can kill a promising talent stone dead.

I would suggest that, for ebooks, the whole model of present-day publishing is redundant. All an ebook author really needs is a blog. If he needs or wants to be paid, a PayPal button is the answer; and if a blog isn't adequate, a modest website can be knocked up using free tools, then hosted for a few dollars a month.

By cutting out the agent, publisher, and bookstore, the price of an ebook can be slashed to a couple of dollars or less -- and the author will not only be making as much as he would if he were published in the traditional way, but he will be paid instantly, without having to wait six months or more for an opaque royalty statement and a remittance from which his agent has deducted 15%.

I'm not saying that agents are redundant: they still have a role in selling subsidiary rights. But there is no need for them when it comes to ebooks.

Authors have been ripped off ever since the printing-press was invented. Ebooks can change all that. Mr Justus is obviously stuck in an antiquated mindset. My best advice to him would be to look around for another line of work.

[Shaggy]

Originally Posted by jridley

Is this work that does not have to be done for normal print? Is it work that has to be done separately for each ebook format? If so it seems like the solution is to design a better workflow, not do a ton of work. I can't believe that every ebook format is so wildly different from every other one that many hours of work has to be done for every format, given that it's already been done for one format.

Surely proofreading needs to be done for ANY format, including dead trees?

Yeah, people are mixing together editing costs and distribution costs. The editing will stay relatively the same, regardless of whether it's an eBook or a pBook. Also, most of the work you do for one will carry over to the other. As for the ebook formats being so vastly different that you have to start over again for each one... that's not really true. If you do it right to begin with then it's fairly painless to convert to the different formats. I have no doubt that it's possible for it to be a major effort, but if it is then you're doing it wrong.

Editing is not where the ebook savings comes into play. That stays basically the same. It's the whole distribution/retailer chain where ebooks become much lower cost. Publishers don't get that because they're trying to apply their old model to ebooks. The savings comes from changing the model. If, as the article says, it's just as expensive to run an online service as a physical distribution chain, then the publisher is an idiot.

[Phogg]

Originally Posted by jridley

Surely proofreading needs to be done for ANY format, including dead trees?

No. Only ebooks need to be proofread.
We have posters saying that on pretty much every thread, so it must be true.