The Vent and Rant Thread

[Katsunami]

Originally Posted by wodin

Yup, as an IT Project Manager, my mantra is "I'm NOT an engineer" (software or hardware or infrastructure or marketing or budgeting or any other aspect of the industry), and I must rely heavily on those who are. In PM parlance those folks are "resources", and without resources I'm hamstrung.

IT management is about knowing just enough about the resources to patch them together into a useful and profitable product.

A description like that always makes me seriously angry and recalcitrant.

It basically says that the manager is some sort of genius strategist, who uses the people in his team as chess pieces, or worse, tools, to create a product. The worst thing is that there are many managers who actually believe that this is the case; them being the product creator, and the people in the team just (replaceable) tools to get the job done.

As soon as I detect that kind of attitude, a manager loses all respect in my eyes. If someone, in my eyes, shouldn't be in the position of a manager, teacher or leader (or whatever), then I have a *serious* problem with authority.

The way to prove to me that one should be in such a position is not by completing a ''leadership course" or a "Management of IT projects" education; you do it by showing me products you've (helped to) design, build or program in the past, thereby creating stuff that is actually used for a long time.

*THEN*, and only then, can you go follow some management courses and earn the privilege to be a project leader, and manage similar projects, so you actually know WHAT you are managing, and know which expectations are realistic and which are not.

[wodin]

I wish you luck, with an attitude like that you'll need it.

[Katsunami]

Originally Posted by wodin

I wish you luck, with an attitude like that you'll need it.

Apparently I do, because I've only once had a team leader/project manager who actually knew what 'being realistic' was. If I, the dude who has to make the thing (and who has made similar things before), tells you that it takes 2 months if all goes well, then it's just stupid to set a deadline at 4 or 6 weeks and then be utterly surprised that stuff isn't finished or isn't working correctly.

I haven't seen it once; I've seen it countless times, and always by people who did not 'deserve' to be a project manager i.e.: someone who took some sort of management courses or education, and then got to manage in a field he never worked in and often even didn't understand.

A good project manager always comes up from below (having done the work himself, THEN turned manager), and not from above (having no experience in the field and only theoretical management knowledge). You said so yourself: the skills to be a PM can be approached from any of the various subjects, and while it can be taught in institutions that path will not normally provide the requisite experience.

Of all the project managers I ever had, only one had worked in the field himself for more than 10 years, and he was the only good one.

[Cinisajoy]

Originally Posted by Katsunami

Apparently I do, because I've only once had a team leader/project manager who actually knew what 'being realistic' was. If I, the dude who has to make the thing (and who has made similar things before), tells you that it takes 2 months if all goes well, then it's just stupid to set a deadline at 4 or 6 weeks and then be utterly surprised that stuff isn't finished or isn't working correctly.

I haven't seen it once; I've seen it countless times, and always by people who did not 'deserve' to be a project manager i.e.: someone who took some sort of management courses or education, and then got to manage in a field he never worked in and often even didn't understand.

A good project manager always comes up from below (having done the work himself, THEN turned manager), and not from above (having no experience in the field and only theoretical management knowledge). You said so yourself: the skills to be a PM can be approached from any of the various subjects, and while it can be taught in institutions that path will not normally provide the requisite experience.

Of all the project managers I ever had, only one had worked in the field himself for more than 10 years, and he was the only good one.

I only have one comment on this.
You could have left off the project.
Different field but my husband is on his 3rd manager this year.
He has been in his field for 28 years. His last manager had been in that field 3 months when he arrived at hubby's shop.
That was a good time.

[wodin]

Originally Posted by Katsunami

Apparently I do, because I've only once had a team leader/project manager who actually knew what 'being realistic' was. If I, the dude who has to make the thing (and who has made similar things before), tells you that it takes 2 months if all goes well, then it's just stupid to set a deadline at 4 or 6 weeks and then be utterly surprised that stuff isn't finished or isn't working correctly.

I haven't seen it once; I've seen it countless times, and always by people who did not 'deserve' to be a project manager i.e.: someone who took some sort of management courses or education, and then got to manage in a field he never worked in and often even didn't understand.

A good project manager always comes up from below (having done the work himself, THEN turned manager), and not from above (having no experience in the field and only theoretical management knowledge). You said so yourself: the skills to be a PM can be approached from any of the various subjects, and while it can be taught in institutions that path will not normally provide the requisite experience.

Of all the project managers I ever had, only one had worked in the field himself for more than 10 years, and he was the only good one.

Exactly.

In my industry one of the requirements for middle management IT positions is "One or more years of successful experience in the next lower pay grade or equivalent." Education in lieu of experience is PhD for the pay grade below mine, and there is none at my level.

So we tend to produce good PMs, our problem is we tend to lean toward "Functional Organizations" and the managers and supervisors of the various subdivisions are loath to provide top notch resources so we we get to work mostly with their misfits. The better ones understand that the better the product we give them the easier their job is, so their support is a bit better.

[Katsunami]

Originally Posted by wodin

In my industry one of the requirements for middle management IT positions is "One or more years of successful experience in the next lower pay grade or equivalent." Education in lieu of experience is PhD for the pay grade below mine, and there is none at my level.

I don't understand.

- You must have at least one year of successful work experience in the pay grade below yours
- The pay grade below yours requires you have a PhD

It therefore follows that everyone at your pay grade inevitably must have a PhD, but you state there is no requirement with regard to education. That implies that you could be at your level without a PhD, but then you can't ever fulfill the other requirement of having worked one level lower for at least one year.

I'm understanding this the wrong way or I'm missing something.

I haven't met a single PhD in any company I've worked in; if they work in companies at all. There are only very few in the Netherlands that provide (research) positions at that level.

[orlok]

Originally Posted by CRussel

Y'ah know, folks, this is not the computer programming/literacy thread. Just saying.

Thank you.

Double what he said.

My rant is that this thread is getting tedious in the extreme.

[Blossom]

Let's get back on topic folks! I suggest you start an IT thread to finish your discussion. I can also move your posts over if you want to a new thread.

I do understand off topic posts do happen but this has turned into a long discussion so let's move on.

Sent from my Nexus 7

[wodin]

Originally Posted by Katsunami

I don't understand.

- You must have at least one year of successful work experience in the pay grade below yours
- The pay grade below yours requires you have a PhD

It therefore follows that everyone at your pay grade inevitably must have a PhD, but you state there is no requirement with regard to education. That implies that you could be at your level without a PhD, but then you can't ever fulfill the other requirement of having worked one level lower for at least one year.

I'm understanding this the wrong way or I'm missing something.

Yes, perhaps I wasn't clear, It means that in order to be hired at the grade below me you must either have experience in the grade below that (or equivalent with a different employer) OR you must have a PhD in Information Management Technology. In my case I had experience with another employer. In order to be hired or promoted into my grade you MUST have experience regardless of your level of education.

Most people are promoted into my level, although a few are hired based on their experience somewhere else. It is very rare for anyone to be hired under the Education in lieu of experience clause.

[Katsunami]

Originally Posted by wodin

...
It is very rare for anyone to be hired under the Education in lieu of experience clause.

Thanks for the clarification. I'd love it to be so in the Netherlands, but atm, it doesn't seem like it.

Now for a real rant.

I love Bach's music, but I also hate it... when I want to play it myself. I wonder how I ever learned "Toccata and Fugue in D Minor" at the organ as a kid. At some point I played that piece as a warmup... (although I never, ever managed to finish the whole thing without at least one mistake). Even now, after having been out of Bach for over 15 years, I can still play big parts of this piece, from memory.

However, I want to get into Bach (and some other classical music) again, at the piano this time... and because I've played popular music for the last 5-8 years, I decided to start at the beginning.

So now I'm playing "Minuet in G Major", from "First lessons in Bach." I played that as a kid when I was 8 years old, so it shouldn't be a problem now, should it?

Well... playing?

*BUTCHERING* is more like it. I'm murdering it. If anyone hears the practicing, I'll probably end up in jail. I can play (organ) pieces from memory and convert/rearrange some popular pieces from my organ arrangement onto the piano, live, that are multiple times more difficult than this.

WHY can't I play that Minuet while sight reading it? Oh, the right hand is no problem, but as soon as the (very simple) left hand comes in, it's *poof*: all goes to hell.

After you master a Bach piece, it seems to play itself, but it takes always takes six weeks to get the first three lines down. Why is that? Even with a simple one such as this?

And on top of that, I misplaced the book. I can't, for the life of me, find it right now. I only used it a few days ago.

(Oh, and it sounds as if it's composed by Disney... I get a distinct "dance piece for the princess' wedding' feeling by it. Maybe they even used it as such. Maybe it's because it reminds me of "Lavender's Blue", which is used in the Cinderella 2015 movie... although Lavender's Blue isn't even a minuet. The funny thing is that I actually *can* play that piece. edit: although not the Cinderella version, which is more difficult than the one I've known for a long time.)

edit: found the book. It was actually in my work bag. I must have put it in there last Sunday, accidentally mixed together with some papers I took to work.

[WT Sharpe]

Okay, on the advice of my doctor, I'm keeping a food diary. It's basically a way to count calories. Yes, there's an app for that. Several, if fact, and I'm using one of the more popular.

So tonight we had pizza; Tombstone and Red Baron. When I went to add what I ate to the app and I saw that both Tombstone and Red Baron consider one serving to be 1/5 of a pizza. WHO IN BLUE BLAZES CUTS A PIZZA INTO FIVE EQUAL SLICES? (Forgive the yelling. Dieting makes me moody.)

Everyone that cuts pizzas into five pieces, raise your hand.

[Cinisajoy]

Originally Posted by WT Sharpe

Okay, on the advice of my doctor, I'm keeping a food diary. It's basically a way to count calories. Yes, there's an app for that. Several, if fact, and I'm using one of the more popular.

So tonight we had pizza; Tombstone and Red Baron. When I went to add what I ate to the app and I saw that both Tombstone and Red Baron consider one serving to be 1/5 of a pizza. WHO IN BLUE BLAZES CUTS A PIZZA INTO FIVE EQUAL SLICES? (Forgive the yelling. Dieting makes me moody.)

Everyone that cuts pizzas into five pieces, raise your hand.

How the heck would you cut that pizza?
You would need a compass and a large protractor.
Your yelling is quite understandable.
Oh I guess one could cut it into 20 equal slices and eat 4.

[cromag]

Cut it into ten and then have two.

Next!

[Rumpelteazer]

At around midnight last night an alarm went off somewhere and didn't stop for at least 2 hours. I eventually managed to fall asleep by blocking the sound by using both my earplugs and putting a folded up scarf on my ear (I always fall asleep when lying on my side).

This morning the alarm is going on and off again, so I suspect there was a problem with the alarm and they're now trying to solve it.

One thing that will happen in the coming days is that people who live on the block, and especially those living in the apartment blocks come to our store to complain about the noise. Yes, they know it wasn't our alarm, but they do expect us to complain to the person/store/restaurant/café whose alarm it was. It's the result of problems there were about 25 years ago with the cafés. We agreed, with the council and police, that people could come and tell us their complaints and we would gather all complaints and give them to the council and police. It didn't work; after a while the council declared all problems solved because only one person (my father) was still complaining. But it set precedent that people could come to us with their complaints. The people who have lived in the apartment complex for a long time tell any newcomer that they can come to use with any neighbourhood complaints. For years we've been trying to discourage people from coming to us and going to the person/café/business causing the problem, but they still come to us.

[Bilbo1967]

Originally Posted by WT Sharpe

Okay, on the advice of my doctor, I'm keeping a food diary. It's basically a way to count calories. Yes, there's an app for that. Several, if fact, and I'm using one of the more popular.

So tonight we had pizza; Tombstone and Red Baron. When I went to add what I ate to the app and I saw that both Tombstone and Red Baron consider one serving to be 1/5 of a pizza. WHO IN BLUE BLAZES CUTS A PIZZA INTO FIVE EQUAL SLICES? (Forgive the yelling. Dieting makes me moody.)

Everyone that cuts pizzas into five pieces, raise your hand.

Well, I'm part of a family of 5, so...