Marvin 3.0

[vs40]

@kguil Ohh! I wish it will happen today

[chrisridd]

Originally Posted by kguil

@eschwartz - I'd rather if everyone takes it easy

@vs40 - M3 has been submitted. I didn't announce widely just in case there is a rejection that might take some work and get everything delayed and everyone disappointed. Since M3 is a new app and technically a new release, app review is more thorough so there's a small chance of it happening.

Good luck! I hope this week's WWDC doesn't slow down the process too much...

[kguil]

Thanks for your encouraging words!

[Faterson]

No need to reply to Turtle's "blah, blah, blah", devoid of substance as usual.

So here's the real deal, folks: in Marvin 2, when you tap the "Author sort..."* menu item in the library, you get to see exactly what you're looking for: all the authors in your library, sorted intelligently based on their last names. "Ernest Hemingway" under "H", not "E" (that's dumb like hell, IMO), etc.

But in Marvin 3, there is no such option. The only sorting of authors in the comprehensive authors list available in Marvin 3 is the dumb one, based on authors' first names. Hemingway under "E".

I find this unacceptable, and I believe Adrian and other Marvin users will find this disappointing as well. What's the use of upgrading software, if the new software version is dumber than the previous version? I am not saying that Marvin 3 is dumber than Marvin 2 overall – nope, it's not, but in some respects (important for me), it is. Over the last few weeks, I've been trying to alert Kris to each such instance; some of the lost Marvin 2 smartness/features have already been restored by Kris as of tonight, but there are still quite a few things, right now, that Marvin 2 can do but Marvin 3 cannot do (or it does them, in my experience, in an inferior way).

I'm not blaming Kris – this comes with the territory, whenever you decide to "rewrite the software from the ground up", which is what Marvin 3 is. It's not a direct continuation of Marvin 2, but basically a new app inspired by Marvin 2, trying to offer even more than Marvin 2, and in a more reliable way. In some respects, Marvin 3 is a resounding success – for example, highlighting is pure pleasure now (none of your Marvin 2 wobbliness anymore, when highlighting across paragraph or page boundaries). But there are still quite a few Marvin 2 features that seem to have been "forgotten by the wayside" as Kris was building the app anew from the ground up. The role of us Beta-testers is to remind Kris of those forgotten features and certain forgotten smart ways in which Marvin 2 used to accomplish things, so that we can restore all those Marvin 2 features and at least replicate (if not improve) that Marvin 2 smartness in Marvin 3.

To clarify: Kris has so far not (as far as I'm aware) recognized that the "dumb" authors sorting in Marvin 3 is a flaw, or that he intends to rectify it. (That's just another Turtle dream.) Nope: in our conversations, Kris has been, on the contrary, insisting that the "dumb" authors sorting in Marvin 3 is a necessity. I've been trying to persuade Kris that that is not the case – but with no success so far. I've written very long messages to Kris on this subject, and I can post them on an impromptu webpage if anyone would like to read them. (They are very long.)

Unfortunately, from a Beta-tester's point of view, I find the Marvin 3 Beta-testing process to be distinctly inferior compared to the Marvin 2 and Marvin 1 Beta-testing days – and I fear whether Marvin 3 will not suffer for it. Kris himself is satisfied with the new Beta-testing (he's only conducting isolated discussions between himself and individual Beta-testers), but Kris is only one side of the Beta-testing process. I can distinctly remember that during Marvin 2 and Marvin 1 Beta-testing, we frequently arrived at clarity in troubleshooting an issue because many Beta-testers could provide their own input, suggesting a solution. That is why I can, once again, only invite all the current Marvin 3 Beta-testers to join the Marvin Beta-testing mailing list at Google Groups (as explained here) even if, this time around, Kris won't be able to listen to us there or provide any feedback to us there. However, it would still be very beneficial for Beta testers to be able to discuss any unresolved/unclear beta issues among themselves.

______
* "author sort" is a horrible misnomer, mechanically copied by Marvin from Calibre, as I've been trying to alert Kris for many years – to no avail. Yes, it's a misnomer, but at least it produces the expected smart results in Marvin 2, unlike in Marvin 3.

[tanteoma]

I'm ridiculously hyped.

[Geosprouter]

Originally Posted by tanteoma

I'm ridiculously hyped.

ditto

[kguil]

Good news. Marvin SxS (Marvin's companion app) has been reviewed and approved by Apple. Marvin is still waiting to be reviewed. In the (unlikely) event that they approve Marvin today, I'll release it right away for some weekend fun. Otherwise (and assuming they don't reject for some stupid mistake I made), it looks like M3 will be out next week.

[Kumabjorn]

Originally Posted by kguil

Good news. Marvin SxS (Marvin's companion app) has been reviewed and approved by Apple. Marvin is still waiting to be reviewed. In the (unlikely) event that they approve Marvin today, I'll release it right away for some weekend fun. Otherwise (and assuming they don't reject for some stupid mistake I made), it looks like M3 will be out next week.

Looking forward to that!

Balbutio ergo sum

[Turtle91]

Originally Posted by kguil

Good news. Marvin SxS (Marvin's companion app) has been reviewed and approved by Apple. Marvin is still waiting to be reviewed. In the (unlikely) event that they approve Marvin today, I'll release it right away for some weekend fun. Otherwise (and assuming they don't reject for some stupid mistake I made), it looks like M3 will be out next week.

Great News! I'm definitely looking forward to it - as are all my friends and family. I've been telling them that this app is AWESOME and they can't wait to get it either!

[Breinstein]

Originally Posted by Faterson

No need to reply to Turtle's "blah, blah, blah", devoid of substance as usual.

So here's the real deal, folks: in Marvin 2, when you tap the "Author sort..."* menu item in the library, you get to see exactly what you're looking for: all the authors in your library, sorted intelligently based on their last names. "Ernest Hemingway" under "H", not "E" (that's dumb like hell, IMO), etc.

But in Marvin 3, there is no such option. The only sorting of authors in the comprehensive authors list available in Marvin 3 is the dumb one, based on authors' first names. Hemingway under "E".

I find this unacceptable, and I believe Adrian and other Marvin users will find this disappointing as well. What's the use of upgrading software, if the new software version is dumber than the previous version? I am not saying that Marvin 3 is dumber than Marvin 2 overall – nope, it's not, but in some respects (important for me), it is. Over the last few weeks, I've been trying to alert Kris to each such instance; some of the lost Marvin 2 smartness/features have already been restored by Kris as of tonight, but there are still quite a few things, right now, that Marvin 2 can do but Marvin 3 cannot do (or it does them, in my experience, in an inferior way).

I'm not blaming Kris – this comes with the territory, whenever you decide to "rewrite the software from the ground up", which is what Marvin 3 is. It's not a direct continuation of Marvin 2, but basically a new app inspired by Marvin 2, trying to offer even more than Marvin 2, and in a more reliable way. In some respects, Marvin 3 is a resounding success – for example, highlighting is pure pleasure now (none of your Marvin 2 wobbliness anymore, when highlighting across paragraph or page boundaries). But there are still quite a few Marvin 2 features that seem to have been "forgotten by the wayside" as Kris was building the app anew from the ground up. The role of us Beta-testers is to remind Kris of those forgotten features and certain forgotten smart ways in which Marvin 2 used to accomplish things, so that we can restore all those Marvin 2 features and at least replicate (if not improve) that Marvin 2 smartness in Marvin 3.

To clarify: Kris has so far not (as far as I'm aware) recognized that the "dumb" authors sorting in Marvin 3 is a flaw, or that he intends to rectify it. (That's just another Turtle dream.) Nope: in our conversations, Kris has been, on the contrary, insisting that the "dumb" authors sorting in Marvin 3 is a necessity. I've been trying to persuade Kris that that is not the case – but with no success so far. I've written very long messages to Kris on this subject, and I can post them on an impromptu webpage if anyone would like to read them. (They are very long.)

Unfortunately, from a Beta-tester's point of view, I find the Marvin 3 Beta-testing process to be distinctly inferior compared to the Marvin 2 and Marvin 1 Beta-testing days – and I fear whether Marvin 3 will not suffer for it. Kris himself is satisfied with the new Beta-testing (he's only conducting isolated discussions between himself and individual Beta-testers), but Kris is only one side of the Beta-testing process. I can distinctly remember that during Marvin 2 and Marvin 1 Beta-testing, we frequently arrived at clarity in troubleshooting an issue because many Beta-testers could provide their own input, suggesting a solution. That is why I can, once again, only invite all the current Marvin 3 Beta-testers to join the Marvin Beta-testing mailing list at Google Groups (as explained here) even if, this time around, Kris won't be able to listen to us there or provide any feedback to us there. However, it would still be very beneficial for Beta testers to be able to discuss any unresolved/unclear beta issues among themselves.

______
* "author sort" is a horrible misnomer, mechanically copied by Marvin from Calibre, as I've been trying to alert Kris for many years – to no avail. Yes, it's a misnomer, but at least it produces the expected smart results in Marvin 2, unlike in Marvin 3.

hmm English is nog my native language , so maybe that's why i do not understand what the fuzz is all about .. You are calling an app with literally dozens of options to customize your reading experience and quite clearly lots of improvements compared to prveious version a downgrade because of 1 option not meeting up to your personal standards?

I am wondering why, if you are that obsessed about author sorting by last name, you are are not using the option in general settings / behaviors / author display and sort d:AS / s:AS

[Faterson]

Originally Posted by Breinstein

hmm English is nog my native language , so maybe that's why i do not understand what the fuzz is all about .. You are calling an app with literally dozens of options to customize your reading experience and quite clearly lots of improvements compared to prveious version a downgrade because of 1 option not meeting up to your personal standards?

Nope, I am not. You'd need to reread my post, but if English is difficult for you, just forget it, because it's a monumentally long post. (Sorry.) By the way, it's not "1 option" – quite a few Marvin 2 features are missing in Marvin 3, and some features in Marvin 3 work (in my experience) in a less convenient, less clever way compared to Marvin 2. (I said so in the post you quoted.)

Originally Posted by Breinstein

I am wondering why, if you are that obsessed about author sorting by last name, you are are not using the option in general settings / behaviors / author display and sort d:AS / s:AS

I am using that s:AS option, but it does not show any effect in the comprehensive authors listing, unlike in Marvin 2. To me, that's as clear-cut an example of flawed software design as you can possibly ask for, and I'm really surprised that Kris submitted Marvin 3 to Apple for a public release with this flaw (and other deficiencies) included. Well, it's up to Kris's judgment, of course, and it remains to be hoped that the flaws will be fixed as soon as can be.

[democrite]

I haven't been part of the beta, though I can understand Kris' decision. Given a larger set of ePubs than what you might have seen, I've seen authors listed as:

First Last
Last, First
First [particle like de, von, …, sometimes enclosed in parens, sometimes considered part of the last name, sometimes not] Last
First Last, First Last, …
Last First (for both European and non-European languages where intended)
Last First, Last First, …
Last, First;
Last, First; Last, First; …
Last
First Last, suffix (e.g., PhD, MS, etc.)
Last, First, suffix
…

and like other, sometimes more difficult, cases I've forgotten. I don't really see any reliable way to correctly parse them all, it's going to be more evident with some languages, and someone else is going to eventually report that as "flaw", and possibly people did with 2.x. Perhaps you have some suggestion of how it can be done, but I'm not so sure it can be and it does indeed seem the better alternative is to list as is unless some way can be found to get it perfect.

[chrisridd]

Calibre thinks multiple authors should all have the same opf:file-as attribute of "Last1, First1 & Last2, First2".

What (single or multiple author) cases do Marvin 2 & 3 handle?

[Faterson]

@ Democrite: I strongly disagree with your line of reasoning. Please let's remember that it's child-easy in Marvin to fix your meta-tags (including author meta-tags) if they are incorrect.

So just because many books have incorrect meta-tags, you're going to cancel a Marvin 2 feature, and will dumb down Marvin 3 so that it sorts authors in the crudest way imaginable – according to their first names? I surely hope not.

If a user has chaotic meta-tags in his or her library and then complains to Kris that Marvin sorts authors "incorrectly", the answer on Kris's part would be very clear and conveniently invariable: "Please fix your meta-tags, and then your sorting of authors in Marvin will be perfectly fine."

Please look at Calibre: does it "baby" its users in terms of sorting in any way? Not at all. If the user's meta-tags in Calibre are incorrect, then the book titles/author names in Calibre will be sorted incorrectly. No apologies on Calibre's part – and that's exactly the correct attitude and approach to sorting issues that also Marvin 3 should adopt.

@ Chrisridd: I'm not sure I understand your question, but in any case, my answer to you is the same as to Democrite above: Marvin should respect whatever meta-tags the user feeds it. The GIGO principle is all-powerful, and applies here as well: "Garbage (meta-tags) In, Garbage (sorting) Out." I have had no trouble whatsoever in sorting books with multiple authors in Marvin 2, because Marvin 2 consistently respects the meta-tags as set in the (albeit misleadingly labeled) "Author sort" field. Yet Marvin 3 does not consistently respect the data in that field, and that is – as I feel – an undeniable and unacceptable failure on Marvin 3's part.

[Turtle91]

Originally Posted by kguil

@adrian1944 - Marvin definitely supports displaying and sorting by First,Last/Last,First for authors. In fact, the setting is more accessible and obvious than in M2. There is one specific instance which, for technical reasons, cannot be honoured but otherwise works pretty much like you'd expect it to. I'll write a blog post about it.

Hi folks! Just want to point out that Kris himself - the actual creator of Marvin - has put this issue to rest. Marvin supports displaying and sorting by author's Last name.

There is one specific case that FOR TECHNICAL REASONS cannot be honoured. If anyone is interested in those specific reasons, he will write a blog about it.

It really doesn't matter how much bloviating a certain individual does about this matter...that individual will never be happy unless, and until, he gets everything that he wants, how he wants it. My recommendation to him would be to learn how to program and write his own app if he is soooo disappointed with a "fatally flawed program".

For the rest of us, there is a great feature of the MR forum that allows you to ignore certain individuals. You won't need to be bothered by the bullyings of a hot-headed windbag. To ignore an individual, simply left-click on that person's name on the left of one of their posts and select "Add ... to Your Ignore List". I have unfortunately had to add this particular individual to my list before...I made the mistake of thinking he might have matured in the last several months so I removed him from the list...It's time to put him back on

Bu-bye!