Ewww, fantasy is bad! Won't you think of the Children? - Page 8

Katsunami · 05-17-2016, 05:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

Thank goodness none of his examples of appropriate, "traditional" authors ever wrote any works that contained any of that nonsense.

Frankenstein
A Christmas Carol
A Midsummer Night's Dream
The Tempest
Ode to a Nightingale

MacBeth (witches, prophecies, murder, paranoia/madness, death)
Romeo and Juliet (disobedience, suicide)
Sherlock Holmes (drug abuse by Holmes himself)
Edgar Allan Poe, Arthur Machen, H.P. Lovecraft (supernatural, ghosts, horror...)

LOL @ children should read 'beautiful classical literature to protect them"

HarryT · 05-17-2016, 05:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jbjb

Perhaps because an understanding of mathematics is unquestionably useful in later life, whether or not you like it, whereas knowing a few Shakespeare quotes is of debatable value if the process has put you off reading more widely.

Having said that, I do think it is a shame that more kids don't come out of school with more enjoyment of maths. That's not solely the fault of the way it's taught, however - at least here in the UK there's a widespread feeling (in some circles) that while not knowing the aforementioned Shakespeare quotes bars you from a claim to be educated, "I can't do maths" is somehow a badge of honour and is no such bar.

Sadly, loudly announcing your ignorance of all fields of science and humanities seems to be a badge of honour for a certain segment of society. Not being one of the "intelligentsia" appears to be a desirable goal. I remember in the years following the publication of Hawking's "A Brief History of Time" there was a fad for announcing how few pages you'd abandoned it after.

JSWolf · 05-17-2016, 05:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fjtorres

Diskworld isn't a straight series and MORT stands alone on its own.

Sorry, but I disagree. Discworld is an ongoing work. It does have an order. While the main characters can change, a lot of the time you get the same background and some of the same secondary characters.

The background and secondary characters do go through a progression and they are as much a part of the story as the main characters. Besides, the one of the main characters in Mort is a secondary character in other stories that came before and you do spoil things reading Mort out of order. So no, Discworld books are not standalone.

Quote:

And length is just a number. Reader engagement is more important. Relevance to the times is more important.

The length matters depending on how many books the teacher planed on reading for that class.

Quote:

Beyond that, we agree there is no shortage of worthy modern fiction, right? Both within FS&F and outside it.

Classics are great but they aren't the only answer.

Agreed, there are other books that can be used instead of just OLD classics.

HarryT · 05-17-2016, 06:37 AM

"Mort" was published nearly 30 years ago, Jon. It's a moldy oldie! How can it possibly have any relevance to the lives of children born long after it was written?

jbjb · 05-17-2016, 07:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HarryT

Not being one of the "intelligentsia" appears to be a desirable goal.

In some circles it's even more invidious than that - being part of the "intelligentsia" is seen as a valid goal, but understanding of science and mathematics is not seen as part of the entry criteria.

/JB

fjtorres · 05-17-2016, 07:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jbjb

In some circles it's even more invidious than that - being part of the "intelligentsia" is seen as a valid goal, but understanding of science and mathematics is not seen as part of the entry criteria.

/JB

Exactly.
Then they bemoan the negative effects to themselves of steering clear of the STEM world.

The anti-fantasy diatribe might even be a proxy attack on STEM, given that SF&F are extremely popular with people in those tribes.

Sweetpea · 05-17-2016, 08:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

That's kind of what I thinking. I don't really consider it English Lit's "job" to instill a love of reading.

<snip>

I've always been a little confused by the "Literature class should equal teaching-children-to-love-reading class" notion that so many seem to hold. In my opinion, the love for reading is usually instilled long before children start getting graded on what they get out of "boring" books they don't want to read.

I personally know a lot of people who read a lot during their youth, but stopped reading altogether when the mandatory list was encountered at high school (or rather, the Dutch equivalent of that).

And no, a literature class doesn't need to teach children to love reading, but it most certainly also doesn't need to put them off it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by HarryT

Why do you think that reading something like "Macbeth" would scare someone away from reading? I remember absolutely loving it when we read it at school.

I've never read Macbeth but we have similar types of books here. And there were a few I simply hated but was required to read (I admit, I skipped most of those). While others I loved and even read more than was required.

mbovenka · 05-17-2016, 08:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by darryl

Having said this, instilling such a love is a worthy goal for many school subjects, even maths and science, which some people also love. It should be one goal, whilst also recognising that we are all different and that not every student is capable of loving all of them. Some students will not love any!

Yep. I loved science in school (maths not so much, though) and still keep up with astronomy and physics (to the tune of subscribing to Nature). I also read a lot of non-fiction on all kinds of subjects; whatever grabs my fancy at that moment.

Ebooks are great that way

mbovenka · 05-17-2016, 08:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fjtorres

DUNE is a challenging read, maybe a bit too challenging, but the others work on multiple levels, starting with wordsmithing but going well beyond it.

We had to read 12 books for our English book list when I was in (Dutch) high school (although it probably roughly corresponded to American AP classes, as our high school isn't a single school, but split into 3 levels, of which I did the highest), and I had Dune on my list (actually the entire single-volume original trilogy). And Watership Down. And The Lord of the Rings.

Even at 17, I wasn't afraid of fat books

At my exams I ended up chatting about The Lord of the Rings for the full 15 minutes (as one of the two teachers present wanted to hear about it and my English teacher, who was the seond, had told him 'in that case, we have to talk to that guy') and got a 9 (Roughly an A-)...

Cinisajoy · 05-17-2016, 09:33 AM

On the maths, I do not care if a school teaches advanced calculus. I do think all children should at least be taught the very basics. I mean addition, subtraction, and hopefully multiplication and division.
I worked in the special population department of a college.
What broke my heart was with the exception of one student that had been labeled as special, all of them had to take remedial math when they got to the college level.
Nearly every one of these students had physical disabilities not mental ones. Because they had been labeled, they did not have to take those core curriculum (or whatever they are calling them now) tests.

I remember I was a junior in high school when they first came out with those tests. We were told on a Friday, bring 2 number 2 pencils to school on Monday. Pass or you don't graduate. There was NO teaching to the test like they do now.
And it was just the basics.

JSWolf · 05-17-2016, 10:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HarryT

"Mort" was published nearly 30 years ago, Jon. It's a moldy oldie! How can it possibly have any relevance to the lives of children born long after it was written?

I'm thinking of books written after WWII.

In your opinion, what sort of modern books would you consider to be literature?

HarryT · 05-17-2016, 11:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JSWolf

I'm thinking of books written after WWII.

In your opinion, what sort of modern books would you consider to be literature?

I consider any well-written book to be literature - I'm not a "genre snob".

JSWolf · 05-17-2016, 11:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HarryT

I consider any well-written book to be literature - I'm not a "genre snob".

If you had to pick as 6 books to be taught n school that were written after WWII, which would they be.

HarryT · 05-17-2016, 11:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JSWolf

If you had to pick as 6 books to be taught n school that were written after WWII, which would they be.

I wouldn't. As I've stated previously, I'm a great believer in the idea that classics ("moldy oldies", as you call them, Jon) should be taught in schools. Let children read modern books for pleasure in their own time.

JSWolf · 05-17-2016, 11:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HarryT

I wouldn't. As I've stated previously, I'm a great believer in the idea that classics ("moldy oldies", as you call them, Jon) should be taught in schools. Let children read modern books for pleasure in their own time.

The problem as I see it is that these classics can turn off kids to reading for pleasure.

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05-17-2016, 06:37 AM	#109
HarryT eBook Enthusiast Posts: 85,556 Karma: 93980341 Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: UK Device: Kindle Oasis 2, iPad Pro 10.5", iPhone 6	"Mort" was published nearly 30 years ago, Jon. It's a moldy oldie! How can it possibly have any relevance to the lives of children born long after it was written?

05-17-2016, 09:33 AM	#115
Cinisajoy Just a Yellow Smiley. Posts: 19,161 Karma: 83862859 Join Date: Jul 2015 Location: Texas Device: K4, K5, fire, kobo, galaxy	On the maths, I do not care if a school teaches advanced calculus. I do think all children should at least be taught the very basics. I mean addition, subtraction, and hopefully multiplication and division. I worked in the special population department of a college. What broke my heart was with the exception of one student that had been labeled as special, all of them had to take remedial math when they got to the college level. Nearly every one of these students had physical disabilities not mental ones. Because they had been labeled, they did not have to take those core curriculum (or whatever they are calling them now) tests. I remember I was a junior in high school when they first came out with those tests. We were told on a Friday, bring 2 number 2 pencils to school on Monday. Pass or you don't graduate. There was NO teaching to the test like they do now. And it was just the basics.