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Old 05-11-2016, 07:52 PM   #46
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If I had kids in the school this idiot runs, I'd be complaining big time.
Well, that was a suitably meaningless tautology.
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Old 05-12-2016, 12:56 AM   #47
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IMO, one the problem with teaching Shakespeare is that teachers inevitably pick the wrong plays. They pick R&J because it is ostensibly about people who are the same age as the students learning it. The problem with that logic is that the entire world is different. People don't get married as teens much anymore, and the whole warring parents thing is hard to imagine. Add to that a language barrier and a story that qualifies as heavy drama, and it doesn't really encourage people to enjoy Shakespeare.

Now have those same students read Much Ado or one of Shakespeare's other comedies (but not A Midsummer Night's Dream), and you'll usually find that they enjoy it a lot more, because they can relate to the story better. That same story could be set in a high school, and the whole story would basically just work except for the wedding aspect, which is a minor detail.

Oh, dear. I think I just got an idea for a book.
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Old 05-12-2016, 03:12 AM   #48
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Now have those same students read Much Ado or one of Shakespeare's other comedies (but not A Midsummer Night's Dream), and you'll usually find that they enjoy it a lot more, because they can relate to the story better. That same story could be set in a high school, and the whole story would basically just work except for the wedding aspect, which is a minor detail.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nothing_Much_to_Do
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Old 05-12-2016, 07:48 AM   #49
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Like most writers, Shakespeare has accessible works and challenging works.
Much Ado About Nothing and Taming of the Shrew are among the former and particularly suited to discussing the changed attitudes in western culture over the centuries. A good teacher could easily get students interested in those stories.
Macbeth? Hamlet? Not so easy...

Starting younger readers with his tragedies is not an optimum approach.
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Old 05-12-2016, 08:09 AM   #50
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Starting younger readers with his tragedies is not an optimum approach.
We did both "Julius Caesar" and "Macbeth" in school. I remember enjoying both enormously.
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Old 05-12-2016, 08:10 AM   #51
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Starting younger readers with his tragedies is not an optimum approach.
Depends. If you want to scare them away from reading, you really should go that way!
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Old 05-12-2016, 08:49 AM   #52
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Depends. If you want to scare them away from reading, you really should go that way!
Looking at typical reading lists that does seem to be their goal.
They already do a great job at beating down kids natural inquisitiveness.

Historically, public schools' unstated goal has been to produce efficient industrial age workers; educated just well enough to carry out their jobs but not educated enough to question authority, especially state authority. Of course, this leaves them vulnerable to demagogues, cults, and urban legends but states generally find the trade-off acceptable.

Killing a love of reading does fit that model since it minimizes the risk the future workers might educate themselves.
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Old 05-12-2016, 08:58 AM   #53
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Depends. If you want to scare them away from reading, you really should go that way!
Why do you think that reading something like "Macbeth" would scare someone away from reading? I remember absolutely loving it when we read it at school.
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Old 05-12-2016, 09:39 AM   #54
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Personally, I think that the best thing that teachers can do is find books that speak to the issues that kids are facing today, preferably in settings that the kids recognize and understand, and using language that is familiar rather than archaic. If the point of literature is to make people think, especially about the so-called "human condition" then we need to ask kids to read books that will engage them not turn them off. We have generations who don't read because all that most of them were taught was material that didn't speak to them (and often taught be those who couldn't really make the text come alive or address current issues and concerns). I would say that much of the best literature these days is probably to be found either in the form of science fiction by authors who push the boundaries of what it means to be human or look into questions of existence and morality and so forth or young adult fiction that, while perhaps not written at the complexity that some might want, does speak to youth and to their fears and concerns. Kids will have plenty of time to read Shakespeare and other classics as they grow up, but they never will broaden their horizons if all that they are taught is to hate reading.
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Old 05-12-2016, 09:51 AM   #55
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Personally, I think that the best thing that teachers can do is find books that speak to the issues that kids are facing today, preferably in settings that the kids recognize and understand, and using language that is familiar rather than archaic. If the point of literature is to make people think, especially about the so-called "human condition" then we need to ask kids to read books that will engage them not turn them off. We have generations who don't read because all that most of them were taught was material that didn't speak to them (and often taught be those who couldn't really make the text come alive or address current issues and concerns). I would say that much of the best literature these days is probably to be found either in the form of science fiction by authors who push the boundaries of what it means to be human or look into questions of existence and morality and so forth or young adult fiction that, while perhaps not written at the complexity that some might want, does speak to youth and to their fears and concerns. Kids will have plenty of time to read Shakespeare and other classics as they grow up, but they never will broaden their horizons if all that they are taught is to hate reading.
I guess it depends what you consider the purpose of English Lit. classes to be. Personally I regard their purpose to be what their name says: to teach at least some of the great works of literature that are our cultural heritage. To my mind it's a parent's job to instil a love of reading in their children, not the school's.

Reading for pleasure does not necessarily have the same purpose as reading to learn. If you want to read SF for pleasure (as I did as a teenager, and still do today) that has a different purpose to reading the classics.
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Old 05-12-2016, 10:13 AM   #56
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I guess it depends what you consider the purpose of English Lit. classes to be. Personally I regard their purpose to be what their name says: to teach at least some of the great works of literature that are our cultural heritage. To my mind it's a parent's job to instil a love of reading in their children, not the school's.

Reading for pleasure does not necessarily have the same purpose as reading to learn. If you want to read SF for pleasure (as I did as a teenager, and still do today) that has a different purpose to reading the classics.
That's kind of what I thinking. I don't really consider it English Lit's "job" to instill a love of reading. It can certainly happen that way, though. Just like an exceptional teacher can instill a love of mathematics, or science, without having to "modernize" the curriculum. Hell, my Latin teacher did more to shape my reading habits than any Literature teacher I ever had. And although I was always a fairly avid reader, it was my 5th grade science teacher that really kickstarted my love of reading-for-pure-pleasure.

I've always been a little confused by the "Literature class should equal teaching-children-to-love-reading class" notion that so many seem to hold. In my opinion, the love for reading is usually instilled long before children start getting graded on what they get out of "boring" books they don't want to read. And even if they never learn to appreciate the "out of date" classics (though many still do), the experience rarely results in their love of reading being quashed (once that spark is lit). They just get a little frustrated by classwork getting in the way of reading their favorite books.

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Old 05-12-2016, 10:15 AM   #57
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I guess it depends what you consider the purpose of English Lit. classes to be. Personally I regard their purpose to be what their name says: to teach at least some of the great works of literature that are our cultural heritage. To my mind it's a parent's job to instil a love of reading in their children, not the school's.

Reading for pleasure does not necessarily have the same purpose as reading to learn. If you want to read SF for pleasure (as I did as a teenager, and still do today) that has a different purpose to reading the classics.
Not everybody has a native taste for classics.
And it has, as a prerequisite, a love of reading.

If you had teachers that made the classics enjoyable, lucky you.
(I had a history teacher you presented history as gossip, focusing on the people and their follies as well as their achievements. A rarity that made history fun.)

But way too many students have teachers that treat literature as medicine ("It's good for you!") and make no effort to get students engaged. For them it's a checklist item in the curriculum: read MACBETH, check. Discuss, check. Move on to TALE OF TWO CITIES.

The intent isn't to teach literary appreciation at all.
It's just another assembly line step.
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Old 05-12-2016, 10:20 AM   #58
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I've always been a little confused by the "Literature class should equal teaching-children-to-love-reading class" notion that so many seem to hold.
I'd suppose it's because too often the (seemingly intended, but likely merely ignored/not cared about) effect is the opposite.
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Old 05-12-2016, 10:26 AM   #59
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I'd suppose it's because too often the (seemingly intended, but likely merely ignored/not cared about) effect is the opposite.
It doesn't have that effect in my experience. In my opinion, those who were turned off to reading by a "boring" literature curriculum were never going to be book lovers in the first place. By the time Shakespeare is shoved in front of them in a classroom setting, they're either readers or they never will be.
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Old 05-12-2016, 10:38 AM   #60
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I'd suppose it's because too often the (seemingly intended, but likely merely ignored/not cared about) effect is the opposite.
Would you consider it the primary goal of a maths teacher to teach mathematics, or a love of mathematics?
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