epub converted to mobi won't start in right place

[DiapDealer]

Originally Posted by Notjohn

Could the problem be that we are uploading an epub to the KDP, or perhaps, more specifically, that we are building that epub with Sigil?

As to the last, I can categorically say, "no." How you create an epub with Sigil could certainly have an impact on the KDP conversion process (how you create the epub--period--can have an impact, regardless of the toolchain). But there is nothing inherent to a Sigil-built epub that would cause this issue.

The issue is quite simple: KDP has it's own ideas about where your book should open, and will modify it accordingly (and sometimes awkwardly). Figure out what they want and go with it; or fight it unsuccessfully.

First up is don't try to make the start point an anchor somewhere in the middle of an (x)html file. Make the start point a new file (no url fragments) that follows the html toc and move on.

[intrstngtimes]

Originally Posted by Notjohn

Good grief, the import of the thread title just struck me. Could the problem be that we are uploading an epub to the KDP, or perhaps, more specifically, that we are building that epub with Sigil?

Oh, to clarify, I did not use Sigil - I turned my book into an html document (as per the method Guido Henkel describes) and then used Calibre to convert it into an epub.

It was the Calibre-produced epub that I uploaded to Amazon, only to encounter all the woes specified above.

And while doing even more research about this issue, I discovered this from Aaron Shepard:

Unfortunately, the final testing of your book can come only after you publish it. That’s because KDP staff may alter it before letting it go on sale! Most commonly, if you’ve inserted a “start” guide item, they will move it if they think the book should open in a different place—and they’ll never tell you they did it.

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by intrstngtimes

Oh, to clarify, I did not use Sigil - I turned my book into an html document (as per the method Guido Henkel describes) and then used Calibre to convert it into an epub.

It was the Calibre-produced epub that I uploaded to Amazon, only to encounter all the woes specified above.

And while doing even more research about this issue, I discovered this from Aaron Shepard:

It doesn't matter if you used Calibre, Sigil, or any other method of creating an ePUB. When you load an ePUB to the KDP, it tends to have these issues surrounding the SRL. The "old" method of using "start" doesn't work (reliably) and is outdated in terms of the HTML standards.

Amazon made a change to how they processed and set the SRL (Start Reading Location) several years ago. I don't remember which year it was now--perhaps notjohn shall--but I had a bit battle with Amazon when it changed. I think it was the winter of 2012-13. I specifically remember that this was January--after the big fall-Winter push. We had a client with a prologue in which he gave clues to an actual (real-life) treasure hunt. Long and short of it, the SRL we'd set (using the text guide item) worked perfectly fine in the built mobi, but was altered after loading to the KDP. But on sale--nope, it opened at Ch. 1, completely passing-by the prologue and the oh-so-valuable treasure hunt clue. Our client was, suffice to say, beside himself.

Spoiler:

n.b.: Amazon refused to play ball on it, at that time; we ended up moving he prologue AFTER the TOC, which incensed the client, but at least the SRL was in the right place. Can't win 'em all.

Amazon advised that due to the rather large number of problems that htey had with Word-file uploaders not being able to figure out how to set the "start" location bookmark, they'd changed everything so that now they, Amazon, would set (and possibly override) the SRL in the PW (Publishing Workflow) which--pay attention--occurs AFTER you've pushed the "save and publish" button. Not during the pre-upload on sections 1 & 2.

This means that you cannot assume that the SRL that you see, at Step 7, is the RIGHT SRL that will display after the book goes on sale.

When Amazon made the change, they determined that ALL books would start at the first full text page after the TOC--period. There is no really good, reliable method, for a DIYer to override the SRL that is displayed at Step 7, or subsequently.

I can say, however, that if you want the book to have a LITB of Chapter 1, you stand a very good chance of it doing just that. If you put the book up for sale, and the 'for-sale' copy has a SRL other than that, email Amazon at the KDP, and they'll re-set it for you.

I hope that this assuages your concerns.

Hitch

[jcsalomon]

I can’t guarantee that this will work always, but I did just experiment today with adjusting the start position of a kindlegen-converted EPUB3→MOBI file. In the nav file, landmarks section, I put

<li><a epub:type="bodymatter" href="../Text/Preface.xhtml">Start</a></li>

—and it seems both the “bodymatter” and “Start” were needed (this file originally had its type set to “prefix”)—and in content.opf’s guide section,

<reference href="Text/Preface.xhtml" title="Text" type="text"/>

—again, type="text" seemed to be required. (I’m not sure about title="Text"; I’d previously tried writing title="Start", but Sigil kept rewriting that to title="Text" so I gave up. This works, and I leave to those more adventurous to test the limits of what else might work.)

The kindlegen’d file opened correctly, both in the Kindle Previewer and in my Kindle Fire HD, at the correct page.

ETA: Of course, what Amazon does to the file afterward is beyond anyone’s control.

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by jcsalomon

I can’t guarantee that this will work always, but I did just experiment today with adjusting the start position of a kindlegen-converted EPUB3→MOBI file.<SNIP>

The kindlegen’d file opened correctly, both in the Kindle Previewer and in my Kindle Fire HD, at the correct page.

ETA: Of course, what Amazon does to the file afterward is beyond anyone’s control.

Your post wasn't clear as to when this worked. It's no problem to make a mobi open at the correct place; the issue arises when the file is uploaded at the KDP. Your ePUB3 worked there, in the post-conversion Preview? Is that right?

Hitch

[DiapDealer]

Originally Posted by Hitch

Your post wasn't clear as to when this worked. It's no problem to make a mobi open at the correct place; the issue arises when the file is uploaded at the KDP.

Agreed. Setting the pre-KDP start location is a piece of cake (EPUB2 or 3). The reference item in the guide (epub2) or the epub:type="bodymatter" landmark (epub3) works every time. Post-KDP is when things go pear-shaped.

[Notjohn]

I don't remember which year it was now--perhaps notjohn shall--

The only year I can reliably remember is 1648, the Treaty of Westphalia.

There has, more recently (more recently than 1648 and also the year you're referring to), been a contretemps over the SRL with respect to Kindle Unlimited books. I suppose Amazon was upset that some people might be earning 0.004 cents for making readers start with the TOC. That seems to have died down, presumably because Amazon figured out a way to set the SRL to its satisfaction. (When we say "Amazon sets it...." surely we mean that Amazon relies on software to set it? There must be thousands of new e-books every day!)

As for "first full page of text," that has not been my experience. More often, the purchased book opens in the middle of the TOC. (Not the beginning. The middle, even if it's a short one.)

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by Notjohn

The only year I can reliably remember is 1648, the Treaty of Westphalia.

Gosh, and I think that I feel old....

There has, more recently (more recently than 1648 and also the year you're referring to), been a contretemps over the SRL with respect to Kindle Unlimited books. I suppose Amazon was upset that some people might be earning 0.004 cents for making readers start with the TOC. That seems to have died down, presumably because Amazon figured out a way to set the SRL to its satisfaction. (When we say "Amazon sets it...." surely we mean that Amazon relies on software to set it? There must be thousands of new e-books every day!)

As a not-publisher, in terms of frame of reference, the contretemps over this--the kerfuffle, if you will--is unclear to me. I am familiar with the issue over putting links from the front to the back, to drive payment for unread pages. (n.b.: I confess that it's not clear to me, either, if this REALLY happened, or if there was some flurry of people abruptly putting worthless links from the front to the end of the book, or if it was apocrypha. I do know that I was required to alter a well-known client's book, because s/he did have a link from front to rear, although not a "junk" link.) However, there are things that are self-fulfilling prophecies, or imaginary issues, or "everybody knows apocrypha..." etc. crapola. It's truly hard to discern the "real" from the crap, particularly at the KDP fora.

Yes, of course, it's a bot/program. I nearly laughed envisioning an army of people, sitting there with Kindles, clicking the Go To and then changing the files. If you think of them as Disney characters out of Fantasia, it's a real hoot.

As for "first full page of text," that has not been my experience. More often, the purchased book opens in the middle of the TOC. (Not the beginning. The middle, even if it's a short one.)

Yes, I would agree with that, particularly for a) uploaded ePUBs and b) uploaded MOBIs (Kindlebooks) created from ePUBs. Of course, there are uploaded MOBIs created from about a zillion other sources. With SRLs set in the guide PRIOR to the TOC, that is. (from Word, Jutoh, Scrivener, yadda yadda...) so we cannot speak to every possible input. Oh, and Calibre, too.

Hitch

[jcsalomon]

Hitch & DiapDealer are of course correct: I’d read this just after struggling and succeeding to have the start-reading location set correctly on a local file, and completely missed that the conversation included fun changes Amazon after upload.

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by jcsalomon

Hitch & DiapDealer are of course correct: I’d read this just after struggling and succeeding to have the start-reading location set correctly on a local file, and completely missed that the conversation included fun changes Amazon after upload.

Ah, well you will have greatly disappointed notjohn, who has a Melville-esque obsession with tracking down a way to harpoon the great white whale of the SRL. ;-)

Hitch

[Notjohn]

I am familiar with the issue over putting links from the front to the back, to drive payment for unread pages. (n.b.: I confess that it's not clear to me, either, if this REALLY happened,

Well, there were multiple cases of KU publishers getting emails from Amazon saying their Pages Read Thing couldn't be displayed just yet because the SRL wasn't set, but hang in there, it would be.

I do know that I was required to alter a well-known client's book, because s/he did have a link from front to rear, although not a "junk" link.)

Goodness, does this mean that endnotes could be a problem?

Yes, of course, it's a bot/program. I nearly laughed envisioning an army of people, sitting there with Kindles, clicking the Go To and then changing the files.

The Disneyesque scene (I think of Snow White and the Seven Differently Heightened People) seems to be fairly common among new Kindle publishers.

I mentioned that my books often start in the middle of the TOC, and you said:

Yes, I would agree with that, particularly for a) uploaded ePUBs and b) uploaded MOBIs (Kindlebooks) created from ePUBs.

So I SHOULDN'T be uploading epubs to the KDP? Arghhhh!

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by Notjohn

Well, there were multiple cases of KU publishers getting emails from Amazon saying their Pages Read Thing couldn't be displayed just yet because the SRL wasn't set, but hang in there, it would be.

Seems sooooooooooooo bizarre.

Goodness, does this mean that endnotes could be a problem?

Precisely one of my first questions. And special offers, legitimate ones. Or--how about ANY link from the <gasp> TOC? If someone clicks the "About the Author" link, before they leap in and read the body content, will the Zon come unglued? It's positively vexatious to think about.

The Disneyesque scene (I think of Snow White and the Seven Differently Heightened People) seems to be fairly common among new Kindle publishers.

Indeed. It's a merry one for me, I admit it. I rather LIKE to think about such images. It cheers me immensely, particularly when I compare it with my lot, who rather than the vertically-challenged, more greatly resemble the Pirate Radio crew, from the (wondrous) movie of the same name. Or, maybe...maybe Misfits of Science crossed with Pirate Radio. Yes, that's them. Or, rather, us.

I mentioned that my books often start in the middle of the TOC, and you said:

Indeed. I believe I did say something almost exactly like that, my little

So I SHOULDN'T be uploading epubs to the KDP? Arghhhh!

;

Don't worry about it. Chances are, 99.99% of all readers are, by now, perfectly accustomed to weird SRL phenomena, and behave accordingly. You are publishing your own books, for yourself, nj. You aren't answerable to clients who've paid good money and want the book to jump through hoops, leap tall reviewers with a single bound and be more powerful than a $100K ad campaign. You have only to please yourself, and your readers, no? Then, hell, why sweat it?

[Notjohn]

Well, certainly, I would rather mystify 0.01 percent of my readers than lose the many advantages of polishing books in Sigil and uploading the epub.

[Notjohn]

FWIW, I uploaded the epub of a new book yesterday and bought a copy just now. Go to > Beginning takes me to the first page of Chapter One. This time, in Sigil, I did set the text "semantic" at Chapter One.

So either 1) "text" works if I set it where Amazon wants me to set it, that being the first page of text after the TOC, or 2) it's just another coincidence.

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by Notjohn

FWIW, I uploaded the epub of a new book yesterday and bought a copy just now. Go to > Beginning takes me to the first page of Chapter One. This time, in Sigil, I did set the text "semantic" at Chapter One.

So either 1) "text" works if I set it where Amazon wants me to set it, that being the first page of text after the TOC, or 2) it's just another coincidence.

Praise Jesus. We're saved.



Hitch