Best way to do italic and bold

[fbrzvnrnd]

Originally Posted by bookman156

I had a look at this on Kindle preview. Some JavaScript that doesn't work in the preview but otherwise looks like text on a page.

Javascript on Kindle? Are you sure you are talking about ebook?

[bookman156]

Originally Posted by fbrzvnrnd

I never read it. It seems there is a scream in the right of the page, a narrative in center pyramid, and another in left, but I cannot read it, it is so little. I can create 3 SVG groups and give them a semantic class, if this can be useful. And follow similar steps in the bottom graphical. Oblivious this is a natural paper born text. Digital, non digitized...

I replaced the image with a clearer one.

I think my point is that such text doesn't need anything adding to it. That's if you could even replicate it in an ebook in the first place.

[bookman156]

Originally Posted by fbrzvnrnd

Javascript on Kindle? Are you sure you are talking about ebook?

Not really, just what Amazon mimics as an ebook on the web.

[fbrzvnrnd]

Originally Posted by bookman156

I replaced the image with a clearer one.

I think my point is that such text doesn't need anything adding to it. That's if you could even replicate it in an ebook in the first place.

Ironic: the first thing to do to translate that page in an ebook is mark the text. Markup.

Btw, this is an experiment of digital creation I'm working on over futurista Marinetti 'bombs over Adrianopoli':

http://www.quintadicopertina.com/fab.../marinetti.mov

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by bookman156

I replaced the image with a clearer one.

I think my point is that such text doesn't need anything adding to it. That's if you could even replicate it in an ebook in the first place.

This is the type of book you'd really have to do as fixed layout as an ebook. By its very nature it's not reflowable, because the visual layout is just as important as the content.

[bookman156]

Originally Posted by fbrzvnrnd

Ironic: the first thing to do to translate that page in an ebook is mark the text. Markup.

Btw, this is an experiment of digital creation I'm working on over futurista Marinetti 'bombs over Adrianopoli':

http://www.quintadicopertina.com/fab.../marinetti.mov

Your Marinetti work looks promising. Maybe you'd be just the person for 1982, Janine.

[bookman156]

Originally Posted by HarryT

This is the type of book you'd really have to do as fixed layout as an ebook. By its very nature it's not reflowable, because the visual layout is just as important as the content.

In a way though that text is defined by a different sort of flow, such that you could animate text flowing into such a pattern. But it wouldn't be an ebook. Or would it? Perhaps an animation could be an ebook.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by bookman156

In a way though that text is defined by a different sort of flow, such that you could animate text flowing into such a pattern. But it wouldn't be an ebook. Or would it? Perhaps an animation could be an ebook.

That's best left for an app on a tablet.

[bookman156]

I was surprised to see that there is a Kindle book of Alasdair Gray's wonderful '1982, Janine':

http://www.amazon.com/1982-Janine-Ca...dp/B004UFH81K/

I took a look at the preview. On the opening pages they place the side-notes in the main flow of the text. I don't know what on earth they do with the more adventurous typography. Why bother doing a Kindle book of this novel? Money. But they ought to explain that this ebook will be a pale reflection of the original. A fantastic book, by the way, but get it in print.

[BetterRed]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

That's best left for an app on a tablet.

Even that's fast becoming old hat - VR's the go! So we're told by the MSM - yet again.

[fbrzvnrnd]

Originally Posted by bookman156

In a way though that text is defined by a different sort of flow, such that you could animate text flowing into such a pattern. But it wouldn't be an ebook. Or would it? Perhaps an animation could be an ebook.

a) first of all, the device sellers want to sell. So it is more & more easy try to replicate the iTunes model. Sell - as digital - products that was created in analogic way. So, 99% of ebooks are books. Digitized books.
b) this is a problem for two reason: 1) the tools we have to build digitized books are far far far away from traditional typographic tool: actually are *web* tools. The typographic rules for books are poor and unstable. 2) when you try to build native digital content, as ebooks, you discover a lot of *digital* tools are castrated. As digital publisher we could do 100 and we do 10.
c) so: what is the best way to make an ebook of "1982, Janine"? 1) don't do it: it is an *analogic* creation. You can make a fixed layout, but where is the glory? It is only a digitized photocopy. The original is better. 2) re-create "1982, Janine". Understand the philosophy of the novel and build *another* digital work, a new "1982, Janine" that uses the digital tools as native. As if you want to make a movie of Sofocle's Antigone, you don't put a static camera in front of some actor talking in ancient greek. You take the screenplay, translate it, adapt it to a new location, write a script, take shots, edit it, et ceterae. If you want to make a movie, you *make* a movie. So electronic "books".

[bookman156]

Originally Posted by fbrzvnrnd

so: what is the best way to make an ebook of "1982, Janine"? 1) don't do it: it is an *analogic* creation. You can make a fixed layout, but where is the glory? It is only a digitized photocopy. The original is better. 2) re-create "1982, Janine". Understand the philosophy of the novel and build *another* digital work, a new "1982, Janine" that uses the digital tools as native.

I think you're right. It would certainly be better to re-imagine the spirit of the book in the digital medium than just pour the words it into a standard jelly mould, which is what they appear to have done. But re-imagining it would be a big task requiring a lot of interest and dedication. It couldn't be an off-the-shelf production.

At present the ebook format doesn't appear to be good enough to do that, so you'd have to consider doing it in some form that supported this adventurous typography. Otherwise, as you say, just better not to even pretend that it's just a book that can be slung out there in a standard Kindle product.

Unfortunately, many books are indeed just digitised books and not digital books. For the bog-standard text on a page, it doesn't matter much. Even though the experience of reading on a Kindle is not the same as reading in a print book, they are analogous experiences for many books. That said, I appreciate typography, and the fact that many Kindle books are for instance set justified instead of ragged right even though there is no hyphenation results in bad-looking books. The lack of ligatures also. The average reader may not care about the 'f' colliding with the dot of the 'i', and the huge rivers of ugly space running through the page due to unhyphenated justification, but some do. And I am certainly not in favour of automatic hyphenation either, it can only be done attractively on a case-by-case basis, meaning only a fixed layout can support proper typography if you're going to insist on justification of text.

So an ebook really is quite limited. At present, the limitations seem to outweigh the advantages, and I wouldn't rush to produce an ebook of a book of mine that was still available cheaply enough in print. But if you just want to be entertained by words then an ebook will suffice. Even in badly produced print books the 'look' of the book tends to fade from sight if it is something one really wants to read. Still, I'd like to have both, aesthetic quality in presentation and ideas. So for me ebooks serve if I have nothing else, and I don't expect them to be much more than words that hopefully have at least been proofread a few times, and even that is expecting too much sometimes.

[DaleDe]

Originally Posted by bookman156

I think you're right. It would certainly be better to re-imagine the spirit of the book in the digital medium than just pour the words it into a standard jelly mould, which is what they appear to have done. But re-imagining it would be a big task requiring a lot of interest and dedication. It couldn't be an off-the-shelf production.

At present the ebook format doesn't appear to be good enough to do that, so you'd have to consider doing it in some form that supported this adventurous typography. Otherwise, as you say, just better not to even pretend that it's just a book that can be slung out there in a standard Kindle product.

{stuff deleted}

So an ebook really is quite limited. At present, the limitations seem to outweigh the advantages, and I wouldn't rush to produce an ebook of a book of mine that was still available cheaply enough in print. But if you just want to be entertained by words then an ebook will suffice. Even in badly produced print books the 'look' of the book tends to fade from sight if it is something one really wants to read. Still, I'd like to have both, aesthetic quality in presentation and ideas. So for me ebooks serve if I have nothing else, and I don't expect them to be much more than words that hopefully have at least been proofread a few times, and even that is expecting too much sometimes.

That is an interesting perspective. PDF has been around for ages and exactly capture the page of a book and it is also an eBook. Does it meet your requirements for looks or do you demand touch as well? I am thinking we need a Why eBooks? page in the wiki that I may start based on a lot of the information in this thread although it is off topic to the original purpose of the thread. A PDF in many eReaders does offer a zoom which can provide a feature not present in the original which can be useful for images.

I believe the ePub 3 is designed to provide exactly what you asked for and Amazon has gone even further with their version of the fixed page format by allowing zoom of individual elements of the page. All forms of ePub 3 fixed formats can exactly replicate the paper page if you wish and can be even more creative also, if you wish. I do not think that the current format limits creativity.

Also an eBook is much more likely to have errors corrected than a paper book and you can even get updates to the book you already purchased. Try that with a paper book.

Dale

[bookman156]

A lot of publishers, particularly academic publishers, are now digitising their back catalogue for Kindle. Unfortunately they are doing this by scanning the original book and using OCR, often not even bothering to contact the original author to see whether they have an electronic copy that they could use or to proofread the ebook. So there are an awful lot of back-catalogue books being slung onto Kindle at high prices that have excellent hyperlinked footnotes but poorly proofread text, and perhaps not proofread at all, just littered with OCR errors. If the author finds out, they may complain and then have the work of correcting the publisher's efforts. I find it a scandal.

As for PDF, at least the original proofreading work done on the print book is not thrown away. PDF, for what it is, is an ideal format for representing digitally a print book. We all know this. As to whether a PDF constitutes an ebook is open to some discussion.

[Notjohn]

Originally Posted by DaleDe

Also an eBook is much more likely to have errors corrected than a paper book and you can even get updates to the book you already purchased. Try that with a paper book.

Dale

That is certainly true in the ideal case, but in my experience the e-book is MUCH more likely to contain errors, for two reasons: 1) it's so easy to publish digitally that almost anyone can think himself able to do the job (I like Hitch's sig file warning about amateurs and professionals), and 2) it's so hard to proof-read on a computer screen.

Oddly, I find that my Fire tablet is the better tool when it comes to 2). Perhaps because what I'm seeing is more like an actual book?

I am tempted to add a third reason: 3) there's much more personal investment in the paper edition. I never fail to enlist my other half in proofing the paper edition. I make two copies of the PDF and read aloud to her. If I don't catch the error, she will.

I believe that my books are as error-free as anything from Oxford University Press -- the print editions, I mean. I would never say that about the e-books.