HTML TOC listed in .ncx?

[JSWolf]

I have seen some eBooks that have no content because by the time you get past all the crap at the front, you have no content.

You have the cover page, title page, page or two of review quotes, page or two of the author's works. dedication, frontmatter, ToC, & copyright (not in that order). So you end up with no content or very little content.

I do think that since Kindles have an easily accessible link to the ToC that the ToC be placed at the end of the book.

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

I have seen some eBooks that have no content because by the time you get past all the crap at the front, you have no content.

You have the cover page, title page, page or two of review quotes, page or two of the author's works. dedication, frontmatter, ToC, & copyright (not in that order). So you end up with no content or very little content.

I do think that since Kindles have an easily accessible link to the ToC that the ToC be placed at the end of the book.

Wolfie, my curmudgeonly friend:

I am loath to tell you that at this VERY moment--as you speak and breathe, and as I type--I am in a life-or-death (okay, well...contentious) struggle with The Zon over this. very. thing.

I had a client who had her book REMOVED from sale. This is a first for us, for a "formatting" type of thing. She has had these guarantee pages, that tell a reader if they find a typo, and report it to them, they get the price of the book refunded. Plus, she has a short TOC (name of book, Start Reading, and, wait for it: Full TOC, which goes to a full TOC at the back of the book), and Amazon says....ixnay. To be clear, the guarantee page and the small TOC page (we call it the Wee TOC internally) at the front of the book. Basically replacing the full-length TOC.

Now, firstly, bloody James Patterson does his books this way (short TOC). Secondly, although this is the style she uses throughout the 30+ books that her imprint publishes, this particular Volume is a BOXED SET. How they want the bloody TOC done differently than what we did, considering: boxed set?...I don't know.

I spent an hour+ yesterday constructing a big long brief and argument on the topic, and submitted it last night, saying: let my people free. Oh, wait, wrong job: put my client's book back up on sale, dudes. So far, ....crickets....

{sigh}.

Hitch

[JSWolf]

James Patterson also releases free previews so there is no isue with what content is available for preview.

Yes, it does suck that her book was removed due to Amazon's stupidity. I see no reason not to have the ToC at the end.

I have seen some ePub where the HTML ToC exists but is not part of the spine. There is a guide entry for this HTML ToC. I think that's a very neat way to do the ToC for ePub & Kindles. I should give one of these ePub a go in Kindlegen to see how it comes out in terms of the HTML ToC.

[Tex2002ans]

Originally Posted by Hitch

And yes: if you have a big honking long TOC on a short book (does that ever happen?), it can take up a valuable piece of the real estate, so to speak, in the Look Inside/Sample.

I suspect it might occur in something like a poetry book, where you might have 100+ Poem/Author combinations.

The TOC might take up quite a large portion of the word count compared to the entire book.

Originally Posted by Hitch

I spent an hour+ yesterday constructing a big long brief and argument on the topic, and submitted it last night, saying: let my people free.

Mind sharing the arguments?

Originally Posted by JSWolf

You have the cover page, title page, page or two of review quotes, page or two of the author's works. dedication, frontmatter, ToC, & copyright (not in that order). So you end up with no content or very little content.

Maybe this was their sinister plan all along! Make sure that you can't just get a free sampling of their amazing works, and "have to protect their IP"!

Originally Posted by Hitch

(Grrrrr....when I find whoever it was that told me this Mathias Ergo Pro was FABULOUS, I'm going to sic the flying monkeys on him....sorry for the non-sequitur).

I don't know who that would be. Want to talk about our lord and savior, DVORAK?

[brahms]

In my view the medium has changed so the form has to change. I don;t want my ebooks to look or act like print books. That's all. A ToC in an ebook that has an ncx seems needless duplication as well.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by brahms

In my view the medium has changed so the form has to change. I don;t want my ebooks to look or act like print books. That's all. A ToC in an ebook that has an ncx seems needless duplication as well.

It is needless duplication.I do delete the HTML ToC as it's not needed.

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by brahms

In my view the medium has changed so the form has to change. I don;t want my ebooks to look or act like print books. That's all. A ToC in an ebook that has an ncx seems needless duplication as well.

Brahms:

Bear in mind that the current and prior crops of MOBI reading devices from Amazon generally don't read/use the NCX for customer view. (As we are discussing Amazon, here in the ePUB sub-fora...???) They use the toc.html. I've seen people claim that the Fire uses the NCX, rather than the toc.html, but honestly, I've never bothered to check it, and I see no real compelling reason why it would. I mean, sure, if the book doesn't have the toc.html...fine. Makes sense.

But why would Amazon--now, think about this, kiddles--in new releases of OS for the Kindle Fires, embrace the NCX, now, when ePUB3, which dispenses with the NCX (boo, hiss), is more than on the horizon? That seems stupid, to say the least, and while I find Amazon to be obdurate, I truly don't find them stupid.

Hitch

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by Tex2002ans

I suspect it might occur in something like a poetry book, where you might have 100+ Poem/Author combinations.

The TOC might take up quite a large portion of the word count compared to the entire book.

Mind sharing the arguments?

I'll try to condense it later today.

Hitch

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by Hitch

while I find Amazon to be obdurate, I truly don't find them stupid.

Hitch

I do sometimes. KDP is stupid at times. Not allowing the ToC at the back of the book is stupid.

[JSWolf]

I've a KF8 eBook that does have the ToC at the end of the eBook. The ePub version has the HTML ToC not part of the spine, but listed in the guide. When you run the ePub through Kndlegen, the HTML ToC is put at the end of the eBook.

Amazon has two standards. One for the publishers and the other for the self-published.

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

I do sometimes. KDP is stupid at times. Not allowing the ToC at the back of the book is stupid.

Wolfie, Wolfie, Wolfie {sigh}. That's definitely vestigial Calibre. After all, nothing else puts the TOC at the end. Yes, I know what you then said in your follow-up, going there now. Below, I mean.

Originally Posted by JSWolf

I've a KF8 eBook that does have the ToC at the end of the eBook. The ePub version has the HTML ToC not part of the spine, but listed in the guide. When you run the ePub through Kndlegen, the HTML ToC is put at the end of the eBook.

Sure, but that's because it's been "instructed" to do so, by not being included in the Spine. Not sure I understand what point you're making, there?

Amazon has two standards. One for the publishers and the other for the self-published.

Well, sure, sweetie--what else would you expect? Even I have that.

It's one thing to deal with publishing houses--the file comes in, in final, we make it, bada-bing, bada-boom, it's one and done. New authors? We make it, and we make it, and 8 more revisions later, it's done.

Of course, Amazon has different standards. Their publisher clients upload via FTP. (Now, be honest: can you guys imagine some of my less-techie clients--you've all read the stories--uploading an ePUB/MOBI and onix data via FTP?? Really?).

I am 99.99% sure that Amazon has NO desire to provide "tech support" to the hundreds of thousands of self-pubs that don't know from FTP. Look at how much they grossly underestimated the tech support that they'd have to provide, just in the arena of eBooks!


Hitch

[Notjohn]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

Not allowing the ToC at the back of the book is stupid.

Is that correct? How is it enforced -- does the book fail, or does a chiding email come in the post? (I've never tried, but I have advocated it in the past for those with 50-plus numbered chapters and no Look Inside to speak of.)

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by Notjohn

Is that correct? How is it enforced -- does the book fail, or does a chiding email come in the post? (I've never tried, but I have advocated it in the past for those with 50-plus numbered chapters and no Look Inside to speak of.)

nj:

Actually--hope you're waiting for this one: they remove the book from sale, along with the chiding (fix it!) letter. Not anecdotal; I have a client right now in a fight with Amazon over this very thing. S/he has a full-length TOC at the back of the book, and a very short (we call it the "Wee TOC") in the front, which has the title of the book, "Start Reading" (goes to the SRL), and "Full Table of Contents" which is, as mentioned, at the rear of the book.

And--pay attention--this is a BLOODY BOXED SET. What OTHER mechanism would one use for a TOC for 3 books? Hmph. I'm not happy with Amazon right now.

Hitch

[brahms]

I did make a version with ToC at the end hoping I might get away with it, but Hitch has made it clear I'd be asking for trouble, i think.

Oh well. I might try a small ToC as 0.5 em or something to at least get it onto one page.

So it's the answer I don't like, but it appears to be the answer I needed. So many thanks.

One more decision made in a long list of decisions.

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by brahms

I did make a version with ToC at the end hoping I might get away with it, but Hitch has made it clear I'd be asking for trouble, i think.

Oh well. I might try a small ToC as 0.5 em or something to at least get it onto one page.

So it's the answer I don't like, but it appears to be the answer I needed. So many thanks.

One more decision made in a long list of decisions.

Brahms:

Well...you could always take the risk. If you are a new author, the reality is, you'll have fewer readers at first, which means, the percentages tend more in your favor, than this particular author of mine, who is a (real) bestseller, with 20+ books on his/her backlist. This person is an Edgar-winner, etc. Thus, more readers, and more opportunity for reader complaints that catch Amazon's eye.

Hope this helped you.

Hitch