Axis 360 now enforcing the use of their app for e-book reading

[Purple Lady]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

Actually, you could install the Android version of Bluefire Reader and use that to read ePub from Overdrive.

I don't want to install Bluefire because it uses a version of ADE that can use the hardened drm. That doesn't matter for library books, but as long as it's installed I could forget and use it for a non library book.

[darryl]

Originally Posted by eschwartz

I've always thought the "no support for library DeDRM" policy was because DeDRM is meant to give you control over your own property.

Just because libraries make it impossible to read a library book without a special app, does not justify helping and encouraging people to DeDRM it and keep it forever.
As HarryT said, you already require specific ereaders (that support Adobe ADEPT).

In view of what I am going to say I should make it clear from the outset that I have no problems with the existing attitudes to DRM and library books. I simply think we should revisit the issue if greater restrictions are imposed upon readers. I certainly am not suggesting that it is justified for people to keep a borrowed library book forever without payment to the author. I am suggesting, though, that there may be circumstances that arise in the future which justify removing DRM from library ebooks to facilitate the reading of that ebook, in the expectation that the reader would not retain the de-drm'd copy. And yes, we all know that not everyone abides by such an honour system. But this is little different than trusting people now to only de-drm ebooks that they own for their own use. To be perfectly frank the issue is a complex one and I haven't made my own mind up about it yet, except to the extent that if it gets to a stage where I can't read a library book on either a Kindle or Kobo because of DRM I personally would feel justified in removing the DRM so that I could. This would not morally justify me keeping that de-drm'd book.

One of the very fundamental problems we have is that neither Authors, Publishers or Readers are all that comfortable with the ramifications of this new product, an EBook. Each try to interpret rights, obligations and even value by analogy to physical books rather than the ebook itself. EBooks are, of course, computer files, and have very different characteristics. They are much cheaper to produce and distribute. Copying is easy, and the marginal cost of a copy is negligible. The potential for piracy is significantly higher. EBooks are not "sold", thereby conferring ownership, but only licensed, sometimes very restrictively. EBooks do not deteriorate with age or with use. An EBook is not "property" at law in the traditional sense, as someone who pirates an ebook does not deprive any other person of the possession of that ebook. A physical book is not subject to the type of restrictions that can be enforced by DRM. These are only some of the characteristics I can think of off the top of my head.

Yet we get publishers who want to charge the same price as for a physical book. We get readers demanding a second hand market for products that do not deteriorate. And all the rest of the lunacies which come from trying to treat an ebook as a physical book. I don't really think ownership is a particularly useful concept here. It is a more distant criterion for asking the question, in this case, about what device or devices one should morally be able to read a borrowed ebook on. Then there is the added complication that even if it is morally okay to remove drm for purposes of reading the book, there is no way to guarantee or enforce the deletion of the de-drm'd copy. And it is certain that at least some will abuse the privilege and keep a copy permanently for which they have not paid the proper price, which is, I suggest, clearly morally wrong. So how much damage would be done? In theory, the market for selling books could be totally destroyed as everyone simply borrows and keeps. Practically, most unlikely. On the other extreme, the effect could be zero, as no one abuses the system.

As I indicated, I have no problem with the present situation. However, I also think that the situation needs to be reviewed at least when major changes occur.

[Cinisajoy]

Darryl,
You can't get all books at all libraries.
If I found I couldn't read a book from a library, I would just find another source to get the book or read a different book.
To me, library items are a non-issue because a person only borrows them and they are not that person's to keep. Formats do not matter.

Now this is just my opinion but if I have to jump through hoops to get any product, I don't need that product.

Also even talking about messing with library books makes me squirm because I don't know who else is reading here and might not be so honest.

[eschwartz]

darryl, I understand everything you are saying.

But I think you need to draw a hard line regarding what is and isn't acceptable. And since you have no intrinsic right to checkout and read library ebooks, any more than you have an intrinsic right to *buy* ebooks, I am perfectly happy continuing to draw the line at DeDRMing stuff which you legally own.

You have no intrinsic right to buy ebooks, but once you have bought them, they are yours and should be treated as such. i.e. you should be able to do literally whatever you want, with YOUR property, including reading them on any device/platform you desire. (And excepting, of course, duplicating it and selling someone else's intellectual property. )
You have no intrinsic right to borrow ebooks, and even once you have borrowed them, you still don't have the right to read them on whatever device/platform you desire, since they aren't yours to do what you please with them.


As you say, it is a complex issue and one which is further obscured by the general retardedness of, and lack of firm guidance regarding, ebooks in general.

e.g. on the topic of "owning" vs. "licensing", there is the question "can you resell your old ebooks".



I tend to think that:

• Either you own it or they should stop lying by using the word "buy" on the button
• Even if it were a perpetual license, you have a non-transferable perpetual license to read it, which is reasonable enough, but you also have the right to use that license (permission to utilize/read/whatever) any way you choose, which is also reasonable enough even if the law hasn't caught up.

Library ebooks don't quite fit in there.

I am happy with that definition, and I see no reason to stick up for library ebooks -- and I don't anticipate changing my mind about that anytime soon

[darryl]

@Cinisajoy and @eschwartz. I'm not sure that I disagree with either of you. I am quite content with the present situation. Though I do think that we need to revisit these things sometimes, as the situation is ever-changing, and not in the direction of improving users experience or freedom. I'll even confess to a touch of paranoia on some of these issues. Dare I say that some of the larger players in publishing and related industries sometimes seem to be far less concerned with morality than our community, which, at least as a community, invariably seems to take the high ground. Hence we see Branch Delay's exemplary conduct in relation to the Kindle Jailbreak, and Apprentice Alf's laudable policy in relation to library books and the operation of the Tools. Hopefully this will continue. On reflection, whilst I do think we need to revisit these issues occasionally when changes like this occur, the current situation probably does not warrant doing so now, and I probably should not have brought it up at the moment.

[Froide]

Originally Posted by darryl

In view of what I am going to say I should make it clear from the outset that I have no problems with the existing attitudes to DRM and library books. I simply think we should revisit the issue if greater restrictions are imposed upon readers. I certainly am not suggesting that it is justified for people to keep a borrowed library book forever without payment to the author. I am suggesting, though, that there may be circumstances that arise in the future which justify removing DRM from library ebooks to facilitate the reading of that ebook, in the expectation that the reader would not retain the de-drm'd copy. And yes, we all know that not everyone abides by such an honour system. But this is little different than trusting people now to only de-drm ebooks that they own for their own use. To be perfectly frank the issue is a complex one and I haven't made my own mind up about it yet, except to the extent that if it gets to a stage where I can't read a library book on either a Kindle or Kobo because of DRM I personally would feel justified in removing the DRM so that I could. This would not morally justify me keeping that de-drm'd book.

One of the very fundamental problems we have is that neither Authors, Publishers or Readers are all that comfortable with the ramifications of this new product, an EBook. Each try to interpret rights, obligations and even value by analogy to physical books rather than the ebook itself. EBooks are, of course, computer files, and have very different characteristics. They are much cheaper to produce and distribute. Copying is easy, and the marginal cost of a copy is negligible. The potential for piracy is significantly higher. EBooks are not "sold", thereby conferring ownership, but only licensed, sometimes very restrictively. EBooks do not deteriorate with age or with use. An EBook is not "property" at law in the traditional sense, as someone who pirates an ebook does not deprive any other person of the possession of that ebook. A physical book is not subject to the type of restrictions that can be enforced by DRM. These are only some of the characteristics I can think of off the top of my head.

Yet we get publishers who want to charge the same price as for a physical book. We get readers demanding a second hand market for products that do not deteriorate. And all the rest of the lunacies which come from trying to treat an ebook as a physical book. I don't really think ownership is a particularly useful concept here. It is a more distant criterion for asking the question, in this case, about what device or devices one should morally be able to read a borrowed ebook on. Then there is the added complication that even if it is morally okay to remove drm for purposes of reading the book, there is no way to guarantee or enforce the deletion of the de-drm'd copy. And it is certain that at least some will abuse the privilege and keep a copy permanently for which they have not paid the proper price, which is, I suggest, clearly morally wrong. So how much damage would be done? In theory, the market for selling books could be totally destroyed as everyone simply borrows and keeps. Practically, most unlikely. On the other extreme, the effect could be zero, as no one abuses the system.

As I indicated, I have no problem with the present situation. However, I also think that the situation needs to be reviewed at least when major changes occur.

Not a good idea to entrust borrowed books to an honor system. Those who want to borrow ebooks from a library, but don't have a compatible ereader, should either borrow an ereader from the library (if that's an option), or acquire an ereader or ereading app that's compatible with their library's lending platform(s).

[Froide]

Originally Posted by eschwartz

I tend to think that:

• Either you own it or they should stop lying by using the word "buy" on the button
• Even if it were a perpetual license, you have a non-transferable perpetual license to read it, which is reasonable enough, but you also have the right to use that license (permission to utilize/read/whatever) any way you choose, which is also reasonable enough even if the law hasn't caught up.

Case in point: NOOKStudy content

I'm rather ticked off that I can no longer use the many NOOKStudy books I "own". NOOKStudy books' special DRM renders them readable only via the NOOKStudy app, said app stopped working over a year ago, and the app's no longer supported.

The NOOKStudy app has been supplanted by Yuzu, and Yuzu doesn't support those books, either. BN's attitude: if the same books were being offered via Yuzu, then we'd make them accessible to you via Yuzu. But since they are not, then ... sorry, Charlie! (My paraphrasing.)

The NOOKStudy books reside on my hard drive, and I'd have no qualms about de-DRMing them - since there's no other possible way for me to read them - but AFAIK, there's no way to do so. Even BN can't-or-won't DRM them for me.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by Froide

Case in point: NOOKStudy content

I'm rather ticked off that I can no longer use the many NOOKStudy books I "own". NOOKStudy books' special DRM renders them readable only via the NOOKStudy app, said app stopped working over a year ago, and the app's no longer supported.

The NOOKStudy app has been supplanted by Yuzu, and Yuzu doesn't support those books, either. BN's attitude: if the same books were being offered via Yuzu, then we'd make them accessible to you via Yuzu. But since they are not, then ... sorry, Charlie! (My paraphrasing.)

The NOOKStudy books reside on my hard drive, and I'd have no qualms about de-DRMing them - since there's no other possible way for me to read them - but AFAIK, there's no way to do so. Even BN can't-or-won't DRM them for me.

In that situation, it seems to me that you have an excellent case for requesting a refund of the money you've paid for your books. It's B&N's actions that are preventing you from reading the books that you've paid for.

[Purple Lady]

Originally Posted by Froide

Not a good idea to entrust borrowed books to an honor system. Those who want to borrow ebooks from a library, but don't have a compatible ereader, should either borrow an ereader from the library (if that's an option), or acquire an ereader or ereading app that's compatible with their library's lending platform(s).

There are library books that do not have drm and trust the user to delete the book when they are done reading. JA Konrath offers the books he published himself in Open EPUB format.
http://freelibrary.lib.overdrive.com...7-21EBB1699A07

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by Purple Lady

I don't want to install Bluefire because it uses a version of ADE that can use the hardened drm. That doesn't matter for library books, but as long as it's installed I could forget and use it for a non library book.

But you don't download to Android to then remove the DRM. You download to Android to read ePub from Overdrive. So it's a non-issue.

[Purple Lady]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

But you don't download to Android to then remove the DRM. You download to Android to read ePub from Overdrive. So it's a non-issue.

Unless I have a brain fart and forget to only use it for OverDrive books.

[darryl]

Originally Posted by Froide

Not a good idea to entrust borrowed books to an honor system. Those who want to borrow ebooks from a library, but don't have a compatible ereader, should either borrow an ereader from the library (if that's an option), or acquire an ereader or ereading app that's compatible with their library's lending platform(s).

But of course the whole publishing industry is currently working on the Honour System! We still have a publishing industry and it is thriving.

I have realised that by and large the current system is working well. I can read on my e-ink readers, whether bought or library books, and can legally access those books and compensate the authors. I am not removing DRM from EBooks and Sharing them on the pirate sites, nor apparently are all but a very few.

[darryl]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

But you don't download to Android to then remove the DRM. You download to Android to read ePub from Overdrive. So it's a non-issue.

One slip and she is stuck with the new DRM. Not a big risk now since hardly anyone seems to be using it, but unfortunately I have little doubt it will be an ever increasing one, though hopefully incrementally rather than suddenly.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by Purple Lady

Unless I have a brain fart and forget to only use it for OverDrive books.

I think you'd be able to manage. Besides, you could rename it OVERDRIVE so you cannot forget.

[Purple Lady]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

I think you'd be able to manage. Besides, you could rename it OVERDRIVE so you cannot forget.

Unfortunately I'm having memory issues, so I can't be sure I won't forget anymore.