Adequacy of EPUB?

[DaleDe]

The discussion about authors implies that this is missing from the current scheme. This is not the case. ePub permits multiple author entries and a second entry called contributors which can cover a multitude of different authors being involved in various roles within the book.

Check http://id.loc.gov/vocabulary/relators.html for a list of relators (roles of contributors)

Dale

[DiapDealer]

Originally Posted by Sarmat89

There is only one party who knows how to display it in the best way: the reader app. Therefore, it is a natural choice to leave it to it.

I think I just threw up in my mouth a little.

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by Sarmat89;

I didn't mentioned cover designers once.

Hmm, really? See next paragraph that's quoted.

Originally Posted by Sarmat89

But there is still no way the user can find the books with covers by Vallejo or the available translations of a certain title.

(BOLD RED emphasis added)

I just thought I should help you remember what you've already written.

Of the 17 EPUB books found in a random folder, 15 had names of the cover artists.
All books which had 'maps', had the corresponding artist credited.
Six books also credited interior illustration artists.

To put this as politely as I know how, bullcrap. Name them. Every single one. Either that, or you're referring to a set of books for which you've already ferreted out the cover designer, or they are YA/Children's books. I can absolutely, positively guarantee that those percentages are WAAAAAAAAAAAAY out of whack.

Poems, letters, scenic directions, something else...

Well, for one thing, poetry varies widely. It's patently absurd to think that one schema could cover all of them or even a small percentage of them. That's probably why there isn't a set schema for that. Letters? Really? That's a big deal to you? I have no idea what "scenic directions" means to you.

See, they can use styles. It is just one step further to mark the major semantic elements.

And, we're back to, you have no experience in this. How do I know? Because if you did, you'd know that many of them are just pushing buttons. They're following some website's directions. They have NO idea WHY. And you can't do markup worth a hoot until you understand the WHY beneath it.

This lack of understanding, of course, is your failing, as well; somewhere you read some enthused post about XML, and it became your raison d'etre. You're parroting what someone else has said. It sounded good to you, so you are trying to sound knowledgeable about it.

You still don't know WHY any of us should use it. I suspect you read a post from some over-enthused FBReader fan, going on and on about how "great" FB2 format is. So, you thought you'd come over here and complain about how "lousy" ePUB is compared to FB2. That's the only place you could have come up with this stuff.

I notice, lastly, that you conveniently didn't answer about how many eBooks you've made. Or how many times you've used DocBook. The fact that you answer the question about listing all the (to quote you) "many" readers that support XML with the honking big list of Coolreader and FBReader...<sigh>

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

I think I just threw up in my mouth a little.

Yeah, me, too.


Hitch

[eschwartz]

Originally Posted by Turtle91

But this is an entertaining waste of time...

I'm not even sure what to contribute at the moment (you've all already covered it for the moment, that's what I get for spending half the day walking the Eruv), but I am enjoying every minute just watching.

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by eschwartz

I'm not even sure what to contribute at the moment (you've all already covered it for the moment, that's what I get for spending half the day walking the Eruv), but I am enjoying every minute just watching.

It's that train-wreck thing. Can't not look.

Hitch

[pdurrant]

Originally Posted by Sarmat89

Poems, letters, scenic directions, something else...

DocBook have plans to add poetry. Perhaps working with them would be a more productive use of your time than creating a completely new format.

[PeterT]

Originally Posted by pdurrant

DocBook have plans to add poetry. Perhaps working with them would be a more productive use of your time than creating a completely new format.

The only bad thing is the updated info at the bottom of that page.

Last revised by Norman Walsh on 8 Jun 2011

.

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by PeterT

The only bad thing is the updated info at the bottom of that page.
.

Well, hell. I wouldn't want to be the one trying to figure that out! I mean...one schema for ALL poetry?

Given all the agita that we've had over the years with poets, kids, I just don't see that ever working. I mean, sure, if we're talking Dr. Seuss or other doggerel, fine, but most poetry? Nyetsky.

@Paul: Now, THAT is an excellent idea. Wish I'd thought of it.

Hitch

[dgatwood]

2011? That's positively current by standards standards.

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by dgatwood

2011? That's positively current by standards standards.

Troo, dat. Although it's ancient by software standards. :-)

Hitch

[Tex2002ans]

While I was catching up on this entire thread, I just couldn't help but burst into laughter.

I use an addon called Stylish + a style which overrides CSS:



I have no idea what Hitch is talking about. BOLD RED text? I don't see any of that.

If I was using this great new Sarmat89 format, my reader styles would be just like my Stylish (Black background, white text EVERYTHING)! Hitch says "BOLD RED", but it looks like white text to me.

Note #1: Just this simple example of the reader overriding the display makes me think of how something like a coding book, where the visual display (Syntax Highlighting) vastly helps the understanding of the text.

Or when explaining a highly complex equation, I might highlight different colors for different parts of equations. Heck, I do it all the time with Regex when I highlight different portions in different colors. Then I can break it down and explain what each part is.

I can't rely on the READER to set the proper colors/Syntax Highlighting. And it is currently a pain in the neck to read a book like that in some of these Android Readers that completely override the "Publisher Defaults".

Or imagine how children's books would be handled! My gods!

But no no, children's books and complex equations and coding books are just the meaningless "5% of books" that don't matter to this ultimate book format.

Note #2: Also, creating all of these individual tags for things (<copyright>, <epigraph>, [...]). These things would rarely be used, or not used properly at all.

As Hitch mentioned, there is just so much crap out there, and people don't even use/tag it properly NOW. It will be completely ignored (such as almost all that metadata in the DC Core or all those fancy tags in DocBook), or you will get a massive amount of garbage input (such as the people who can't use Styles properly in their documents).

I always like to think back to some of the rarely used HTML tags:

<q>
<abbr>

While fantastic ideas, their usage in practice is... let's just say barely anybody takes the time to mark up their documents properly. While it would be fantastic if they were, the reality is, people type (and nearly all the programs output) this:

<p>This is an example of a quote: “Please excuse my dear Aunt Sally,” she is coming here ASAP. I wanted her to “jump” over the “ship”, but she couldn’t.</p>

instead of:

<p>This is an example of a quote: <q>Please excuse my dear Aunt Sally,</q> she is coming here <abbr title="As Soon As Possible">ASAP</abbr>. I wanted her to <q>jump</q> over the <q>ship</q>, but she couldn’t.</p>

Which brings up another point: Does the comma belong inside the <q> or outside?

Different languages + Style Guides might handle the little comma such as this completely differently. Would this be left up to the reader's choice as well? I mean, if the text was properly marked up, the reader could flip flop between their preferred Style Guide, or one of the Style Guides for their given language? (Do you pulled this from the book's metadata? Or overridden by the user's/device's settings? Or leave it up to the programmer of the reading program?)

The reader wants the book as the Chicago Manual of Style? They'll get it! They know better than the Author/Editor/Publisher!

Or with the <q> tag, what about cases where there is an opening quote but not a closing quote? Such as the case where a character in a fiction book has a long dialogue:

<p>“Example of the character talking for a very long time. And he is saying a lot of gibberish.</p>

<p>“And he continues his speech into a second very long line of dialogue.</p>

<p>“And then he finally finishes talking.”</p>

How would you handle this case? Well, I know what I would do. Avoid the usage of <q>!

Note #3: Even with simple things such as <ul> + <ol>, people don't mark up properly:

4. I did this.
5. I then did this.
6. I then jumped over the moon.

instead of:

1. I did this.
2. I then did this.
3. I then jumped over the moon.

Or in some cases, we are forced into hardcoding it because of device bugs (and we all know how timely these millions of reader devices get updating and fix their bugs... right guys? RIGHT?).

So us as the Authors/Publishers could follow all the rules, but because of some shitty real-life implementations, you have to do a workaround. Sure, the standard says it should work... but in reality, you have to use the damn hammer to it because the stupid buggy device is too ingrained and will never be updated to display properly!

Bugs lead to horrible input? Horrible input leads to bugs?

Or maybe tools to create the given format make it easier to write bad input? (Word does a great job of tricking people into using Direct Formatting).

Back to READERS controlling the display. What if the reader prefers Roman Numeral numbering of lists? They override the text. But in the text of the book, the author references "#6" in the list. The reader gets confused, because the text does not match the way his user-defined list displays. In this case, would you say the Publisher/Author knows how to display the data better than the reader?

Side Note: Did you get my joke with those lists?

[Hitch]

Hey, Tex:

I'm only partly sure that I got the joke with the lists. I think so, but...I never know with your sense of humor.

I'm posting primarily to say "it's great to see you." Was starting to worry a bit.

Will rsvp about your post later. We certainly missed your input on THIS one!

Hitch

[BetterRed]

Originally Posted by Hitch

Hey, Tex:

I wonder on who's shoulder his imp was perched

BR

[doubleshuffle]

The Thread Has Risen! Is it Easter yet?

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by BetterRed

I wonder on who's shoulder his imp was perched

BR

I cannot imagine. Imps have a remarkable pay rate, you know. Most of us cannot afford one!

Originally Posted by doubleshuffle

The Thread Has Risen! Is it Easter yet?

Well...if that's the case, does that make me Mary Magdalene?

(uh, wait, I think that last crack came out all wrong....)

Hitch