Adequacy of EPUB?

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by eschwartz

Now you've lost me. Or maybe I've lost it. ...<snip--too many blinky eyeballs, thought I would develop flicker vertigo--H>...


As you so wisely point out, we already have that right now.
And it still doesn't stop authors from putting absolute garbage in there. Even though the correct metadata fields are staring them in the face and waving little red and green flags.

Adding more metadata fields to the exact same, pre-existing UI is not going to make them use the new fields, any more than it will stop them from ignoring the old ones!

@eschwartz:

You don't get it. As near as I can tell, what he's proposing is either an editor (standalone) or an app/program that's a browser-based SAAS, that will have all these fields that MUST BE completed. In other words, the app does extensive error-checking, so you're forced into filling it out.

My inference from everything he's said is that he's picturing something like Bookalope or one of the others. You're stepped through the pages, through the attributes, etc. (Of course, having used several of these browser-based programs, I can tell you that means that it will take ages to complete a book.)

Then, the PROGRAM creates this XML output file, which looks like, well, an XML file. Then the DEVICES interpret how the reader (human) wants the book to look. Somehow, the end user (omg...) programs/sets the device so that they see the paragraphs the way they want, the epigraphs the way they want, etc.

As a commercial maker of books, I just see this as a nightmare. I can barely restrain the authors NOW. I have an exercise book in now, with 450+ images, that we've just remade for the nth time, because--wait for it--our final (*ha) eBook files don't resemble the print book enough.

This is a heavily programmatic way to look at a book. The time for this format has come and gone. 10 years ago, people might have been willing to consider this--back when MOBI was mostly unheard-of, before ePUB had been regularized, etc. But now--now that they are all used to being able to upload a Word file almost everywhere, and PFM, make an eBook--it's not going to happen.

His idea that you'd be FORCED to fill in the metadata fields--sort of ePUBcheck upfront (hell, maybe we could install ZAPPERS!!! You try to ignore something like, "nationality of author" metadata, and you're lightly electrocuted), just makes my head hurt. The reality is, this poster is rather OCD. He wants to force everyone else to submit to what HE thinks is "important" in eBooks, instead of adapting his views--or, for that matter, tweaking the books to suit what HE wants. We've all said, 50x, that he can add whatever goddamned metadata he wants, to ePUB, and he's roundly ignoring us.

So, really, kids: I guess the problem is, the forums are slow, and we don't have anything better to do, so we keep playing in this particular sandbox, is that it?

Hitch

[Jellby]

Originally Posted by Sarmat89

Such things are possible with simple EPUB editors like OO.o plugin or Sigil, with their ascetic UI.
If the metadata dialog follows the XML scheme and gives you nice form with "First Name", "Last Name" fields, with autocomplete and "look online", the possibility to have malformed metadata is much, much less.

Like Dropbox asking for "First Name" and "Last Name", which I input as:

First Name: Name
Last Name: Two Words

and then they "abbreviate" it as "NW", rather than "NTW" or "NT"... and to work around it I changed it to:

First Name: Name Two Words
Last Name: (some invisible character, I've forgotten which one)

so now the abbreviation is "N", which is silly, but at least not wrong.

Do you really think everyone (or even most people) would comply with such a strict format as you propose? Do you think there would be a single official way to create this proposed format, with your sanctioned GUI scheme? Do you think Asian (or Hungarian) names (where the family name goes first) would be input correctly or consistently? What about pseudonyms, nobility titles, ancient names, translated names...? Do you believe putting all kind of crap in the title can be prevented?

[eschwartz]

Originally Posted by Hitch

@eschwartz:

You don't get it. As near as I can tell, what he's proposing is either an editor (standalone) or an app/program that's a browser-based SAAS, that will have all these fields that MUST BE completed. In other words, the app does extensive error-checking, so you're forced into filling it out.

I assure you, I get it.

Excuse me, validating the metadata input fields won't do anything.

If I were the moron filling out garbage metadata, the mandatory fields would quickly find themselves filled with aaaaaaaaaa's.

His idea that you'd be FORCED to fill in the metadata fields--sort of ePUBcheck upfront (hell, maybe we could install ZAPPERS!!! You try to ignore something like, "nationality of author" metadata, and you're lightly electrocuted), just makes my head hurt. The reality is, this poster is rather OCD. He wants to force everyone else to submit to what HE thinks is "important" in eBooks, instead of adapting his views--or, for that matter, tweaking the books to suit what HE wants. We've all said, 50x, that he can add whatever goddamned metadata he wants, to ePUB, and he's roundly ignoring us.

ZAPPERS!

I want some zappers for the MR posting box. Anyone who disagrees with me gets zapped.

So, really, kids: I guess the problem is, the forums are slow, and we don't have anything better to do, so we keep playing in this particular sandbox, is that it?

Hitch

Indeed, and I called it a dozen pages ago.

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by eschwartz

I assure you, I get it.

Excuse me, validating the metadata input fields won't do anything.

If I were the moron filling out garbage metadata, the mandatory fields would quickly find themselves filled with aaaaaaaaaa's.

Yes, and that, Holmes, is precisely the point. All metadata, by and large, is TEXT. You can't regulate that, except by the use of...

ZAPPERS!

Yes, indeedy. You have NO idea how often I wish I had those, particularly for some of my telecommuters. I have one bookmaker in particular--if I could ZAP her buns, I damn sure would. I'm voting a +5 for ZAPPERS!!

I want some zappers for the MR posting box. Anyone who disagrees with me gets zapped.

What, you don't have this already? At the speed of your replies, I thought SURELY you had one or two...

Indeed, and I called it a dozen pages ago.

You did, you did. I bow to you, sir, to you!

Hitch

[eschwartz]

Originally Posted by Hitch

What, you don't have this already? At the speed of your replies, I thought SURELY you had one or two...

Unrelated.

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by eschwartz

Unrelated.

I thought perchance you had one for yourself. A post comes in that doesn't just say +1, and you get lightly zapped, so you don't forget to respond. It's like the antiKarma.

Hitch

[eschwartz]

Originally Posted by Hitch

I thought perchance you had one for yourself. A post comes in that doesn't just say +1, and you get lightly zapped, so you don't forget to respond. It's like the antiKarma.

Hitch

https://www.mobileread.com/forums/spy.php

Actually, I scrupulously use the New Posts search, and I (try to) open every thread to see if there is anything interesting, and leave it there until I respond.

There -- you know my secret now.

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by eschwartz

https://www.mobileread.com/forums/spy.php

Actually, I scrupulously use the New Posts search, and I (try to) open every thread to see if there is anything interesting, and leave it there until I respond.

There -- you know my secret now.

OMG. How many years have I been on this fora, and never saw that? Holy crap, what a dolt! (Hmmmm...doltesse? GirlDolt? Ms. Dolt? Sh**). Of course, I'm in my doltage. (ha!)

New Posts search? Crappity, I just log in and use the User CP thingy. I feel so...sigh, old. However, thanks, seriously--those are cool.

Hitch

[eschwartz]

You're welcome.

See, at least this thread had some use.


UserCP is handy, but I can't find new threads that way.

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by Jellby

Like Dropbox asking for "First Name" and "Last Name", which I input as<snippage> What about pseudonyms, nobility titles, ancient names, translated names...? Do you believe putting all kind of crap in the title can be prevented?

OH. MY. GOD!

Do you mean that my title would be omitted? My "Lady Hitch" title would NOT be included in the meta? Ye Gods, that alone is a reason to do-down this proposed, imaginary, crackpot

Spoiler:

Oops, did I say that aloud?

format.

I hereby refuse, absolutely, to have anything to do with any format that will egregiously and unforgivably omit my proper title. That's just...wrong. Wrong, wrong, wrong.

Hitch

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by Hitch

OH. MY. GOD!

Do you mean that my title would be omitted? My "Lady Hitch" title would NOT be included in the meta? Ye Gods, that alone is a reason to do-down this proposed, imaginary, crackpot

Spoiler:

Oops, did I say that aloud?

format.

I hereby refuse, absolutely, to have anything to do with any format that will egregiously and unforgivably omit my proper title. That's just...wrong. Wrong, wrong, wrong.

Hitch

I think the title should read...Lady Hitch in conjunction with all her cronies at MobileRead

[eschwartz]

Hitch, Can I be your court wizard?

We need a "wizard" tag as well, don't we. Like the translator, illustrator, etc.
Wizard mentors are a famous tradition going back to Arthur.

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

I think the title should read...Lady Hitch in conjunction with all her cronies at MobileRead

That's retinue to you, knave. "...her retinue at MobileRead." I think you should be the Lord High Enforcer of Standards, Wolfie, my sweet.

Originally Posted by eschwartz

Hitch, Can I be your court wizard?

We need a "wizard" tag as well, don't we. Like the translator, illustrator, etc.
Wizard mentors are a famous tradition going back to Arthur.

ABSO-lutely. You get a nice pointy hat to go with that job, too, my little . I also have an idea for a nomination for court jester....although I suspect that the nominee would be underwhelmed (or, gadzooks, offended!) if we offered the post.

(I looked for a emoty for "wizard," but found none. How crushing.)

Hitch

[Sarmat89]

Originally Posted by Toxaris

The publishers do not care about most metadata

That's blatantly false.

Lack of metadata values like 'First Name', etc, lies with the Dublin Core, not ePUB.

If EPUB mandates the use of DC vocabulary in plain text form, it is problem of EPUB. There are simply no alternatives to it.

Most reader applications or readers support only the core metadata, if at all!

Because they cannot rely on EPUB metadata. With clearly defined scheme, that support will be trivial.

For a good search program or library program it matters not if the name is split in a first name and last name. They can search and sort either way. Most names follow quite simple rules.

"John Smith", "Arthur Conan Doyle", "Johannes van der Waals" and "Murakami Haruki" all parse in different way, and there is no way for library software to do that automatically without errors.

[Sarmat89]

Originally Posted by eschwartz

By creating styles, you can turn a decently-formatted DOCX into a decently-formatted EPUB. But adding dozens of new first-class elements is going to throw a few wrenches in that...

That's absurd. You connect the template, assign styles with predefined names, and the converted creates the XML elements basing on those styles, exactly like before. Paragraphs with 'Epigraph' styles are gathered in <epigraph> elements, italics get converted to <em>s... It is not a problem.