The Vent and Rant Thread

[Katsunami]

Originally Posted by Freeshadow

You so want to read Susan Cain's 'Quiet'
This world doesn't like introverts.

I AM NOT AN INTROVERT! STOP CALLING ME THAT!

*locks door*
*throws bolt*

James! JAMES! Raise this mountaintop another 1000 feet and plant another mile of forest around the house! Then leave me alone for a month! NOW!

There. I expressed myself quite well, didn't I? Real extroverty. Thing. Stuff.

[Katsunami]

Originally Posted by DMcCunney

The underlying issue is that the essence of management is communication. Management and engineering are different problem domains requiring different skill sets. I've rather lost track of the number of good engineers I've seen promoted to poor managers.

I know that. There's a little snag in my case.

Software Engineering is actually my second choice of occupation. My first one was being a language teacher, but couldn't finish that education due to having too much of a Dutch accent. I've also worked in customer support (advice, support, and handling complaints).

I know how to communicate... as well as be an engineer. Communication is not the problem. The stigma is. I hear it all the time. "You know, he's an engineer... so you shouldn't expect too much regarding communication." (And that's not only about me, I hear people saying that in general.)

The time where you throw a software engineer into a cellar with a computer and a month of food and drink if you want a program written is a little bit past.

All I could say was "No. It would already be belly up and out of business. The engineers lack the skills needed to successfully run a big, multi-national conglomerate like HP."

And all I can say is that being 'able to communicate' is not enough to be a good manager. If these people were good communicators or managers, they would have talked or managed themselves through tertiary education.

Most of the 'managers' I've met up until now weren't actually managers. They were called 'manager' or 'supervisor' or whatever, but in reality, they were the real manager's mouthpiece, or at best, an intermediary. Every time you'd ask a question or need something done, they would have to go check with THEIR boss before telling you 'their' decision.

I suspect most of the people in that first group ended up in such a position, and I actively *HATE* people like that. Mostly, they're just in my way.

DEC had superb engineers that designed highly advanced products, but the assumption seemed to be "If we build it, they will come", and the great idea wasn't accompanied by a clear idea of who might buy it and what they would do with it when they did.

You don't need managers to get a product sold. You need a sales department and marketing people. (And they are NOT the ones who decide how a piece of software of a device should work internally.)

When you get up into that range, the required skills for top management all revolve around money. You are probably a publicly held business with shareholders whose interest is in the value of their holding. You are a custodian of Other People's Money, and your job is to preserve and increase the value of their investment. You may have a degree in engineering. You better have one in finance, because that's where your efforts will be concentrated.

The people I was talking about have no degrees at all. Not in management, finances, OR engineering. So, they can't tell the engineers what to do, or how to do it. They can't run the companies finances. The only thing they could do is be an intermediate for the 'real' manager you almost never see.

I can respect a *real* manager. Someone who actively runs things, keeps things running, gets shit done when it needs doing, and is able to make well-informed decisions that entail a lot of responsibility, but I know few of those.

[Cinisajoy]

On the really easy stuff...I am not sure which is worse a person assuming something is easy for everyone because it is easy for them or someone assuming that because a certain person can do it it must be easy.
Note:first one is arrogance, second one could be construed as insulting.

Now I have also met many very stupid smart people or would that be overly-intelligent stupid people.
They might could do anything they learned in a book, but in common sense situations they are totally useless.
I know one that told me I was too young to do the banking. After I saw his methods, I was most grateful he thought that about me.
I never bothered to tell the S.O.I (stupid over-intelligent) that I had a bank account for over two years when we got together. I also didn't tell him that my first job was Inventory Control Specialist.
Of course the S.O.I had other ideas about me too that I didn't bother to correct.
Note said relationship didn't last and he turned out not to be the person he still thinks he is.

[Katsunami]

Originally Posted by Cinisajoy

On the really easy stuff...I am not sure which is worse a person assuming something is easy for everyone because it is easy for them or someone assuming that because a certain person can do it it must be easy.
Note:first one is arrogance, second one could be construed as insulting.

There is a third person. The one thinking something is easy because they *assume* it's easy, without actually knowing what is involved to get it done.

They think a button such as "Content Aware Cloning" (removing subjects from pictures, taking the surroundings of that subject in the picuture into account, so the stuff which is 'behind' the to be removed subject can be recreated) is easy... you just select an object, set a few parameters, and click a button. (edit: in Photoshop.)

No matter that one or more people have spent several years creating that function, probably getting Ph.D.'s in the process... it looks easy to use, so it must be easy to create.

[Cinisajoy]

Originally Posted by Katsunami

There is a third person. The one thinking something is easy because they *assume* it's easy, without actually knowing what is involved to get it done.

They think a button such as "Content Aware Cloning" (removing subjects from pictures, taking the surroundings of that subject in the picuture into account, so the stuff which is 'behind' the to be removed subject can be recreated) is easy... you just select an object, set a few parameters, and click a button.

No matter that one or more people have spent several years creating that function, probably getting Ph.D's in the process... it looks easy to use, so it must be easy to create.

You just described my two kids perfectly.
The son thought he knew everything there was to know about running a restaurant before he started working in one. Now he grudgingly admits to not knowing anything.
My daughter in college English kept on with well the professor should just do X, Y and Z. I finally asked her and how many classes have you taught and no helping your aunt with first graders does not count. Next comment was don't make suggestions until you have actually done it. She also has the second mentality I mentioned but that one is due to a relative literally telling her if your mother can do it, it is easy and anyone can do it.

[Katsunami]

Originally Posted by Cinisajoy

...that one is due to a relative literally telling her if your mother can do it, it is easy and anyone can do it.

Hit the relative

[Cinisajoy]

Originally Posted by Katsunami

Hit the relative

Tempting but nah.
She held in her real feelings for me for 20+ years. I was glad when she finally fessed up. She thought I should have been hurt by that but I didn't know only hurt her not me.
I am sure the absolute torture was when we graciously drove her to an out of town funeral. That was before she came clean.

[cromag]

Originally Posted by Cinisajoy

Tempting but nah.
She held in her real feelings for me for 20+ years. I was glad when she finally fessed up. She thought I should have been hurt by that but I didn't know only hurt her not me.
I am sure the absolute torture was when we graciously drove her to an out of town funeral. That was before she came clean.

Not hers?

[covingtoncat73]

Originally Posted by Cinisajoy

Tempting but nah.
She held in her real feelings for me for 20+ years. I was glad when she finally fessed up. She thought I should have been hurt by that but I didn't know only hurt her not me.
I am sure the absolute torture was when we graciously drove her to an out of town funeral. That was before she came clean.

Hee. I'm pretty much down to just my brother and his family and one cousin for family I'll talk to. The rest ofvthe <strike>family</strike> Tennessee Williams play are too objectionable.

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by DMcCunney

My comment back when was "Zombies are the new Vampires", since Vampires were a last big thing.

The problem, of course, is what supernatural critters will replace Zombies as the new menace of the moment. It got discussed elsewhere, and a participant hoped for were-bears, preferably based on something like Paddington. I feared it would more likely be Smurfs. (Zap! You're small and blue!)

There seems to be a dearth of "new" monsters that catch on. And if you think there aren't any werebears, you aren't spending REMOTELY enough time on LousyBookCovers. Werebears and every other type of were-critter, and then some.

That's a killer. No matter how desperate you are to get away from the former solution, if you don't properly understand the underlying design of the new one, you will simply step into deeper and mussier waters.

I'm dealing with an effort at the moment in a different area which has quirks. I spent some time talking to a former developer on the project about underlying design, and he basically said there wasn't one - the original developers had just jumped in and started coding without a clearly defined spec and only a general idea of what they wanted it to do. This failure to invest the time up front to do proper design has required some sometimes amusing work arounds in use.

What kills me is: I know better. OTOH, I spent a silly amount of time looking at other CMSes, and ruled them out one by one. (FWIW, I'd spent an ABSURD amount of time assessing CMSes some years back, and it was disturbing to see that so many hadn't improved one iota). And, in fairness to Joomla, the part i find infuriating is made that way to ensure that know-nothings can use it to build a simple website. I wish that they had an in-between method of doing the same thing, because to my way of thinking, the way that they build nav menus takes longer to do than simply blooding coding them, the old school way.

I have not read it, but the concept is well known and widely quoted. The issue is the depressingly low level of "average" in most contexts.

Yes. I was actually shocked, when I first started biting the bullet about the stuff I write--mostly "how-to" articles, blog pieces, etc.--and writing them "more accessibly," I couldn't believe that to target it to average, you'd have to aim at a 4th-6th grade reading level education. That's appalling.

I'm well past that. I note as I get older that my patience is a lot thinner. I'm generally calm and don't ruffle easily, but that balanced demeanor is harder to maintain, and I spent a lot more time snarling privately to maintain a tactful and diplomatic public persona.

My idea of the best way to improve a lot of things I encounter tends to summary executions of those involved.

LOL, me too.

In one such instance, I was asked how I was doing, and said "I have no problems that cannot be resolved by hand cuffs, ball gags, and glow-in-the-dark dildos." The people who asked the question broke up. An attractive young woman seated on the floor near me looked up and said
"What do I have to do to be a problem?"
"Was it the cuffs, the ball gags, or the dildos that got your attention?"
"All three, really."
"We'll talk..."

______
Dennis

So, how was the date? :-D

Originally Posted by DMcCunney

The trick is a realistic estimation of what you are good at and what you aren't. Most of the issues I deal with revolve around people who think they know more and have more skills at something than they actually do. This is often generational, with young folks unwilling to listen to older ones, sublimely convinced that they know better. It would be less annoying if more of them learned something when their ignorance bit them.


IQ is somewhat out of favor these days, and the Stanford Binet tests got knocked as flawed and biased because various groups did less well on them. These days, I think there are about a dozen different major forms of intelligence being spoken of, with people possessing a varying mix of them.

Oh, I dunno. I remember all the sociological fooferah about it, back when, how it was biased, yadda yadda. OTOH, I find it interesting that I'm only very, very rarely surprised when someone mentions their IQ--they always seem to fit about right.

The problem is that intelligence is domain specific: do you have enough of the type required to deal with the situation you are in? If you don't, you have problems. And the sorts of capabilities the Stanford Binet tests measure are the ones you are most likely to need to deal with a modern technological society. So while it's unfashionable to talk about it, folks with low IQs are likely to have problems because they have low IQs, don't learn as quickly or as well, and may simply not comprehend critical concepts.
______
Dennis

Well, logic seems to be incorporated in the tests for IQ, and without logic, one is very poorly equipped in terms of problem-solving. I agree that the politically correct crowd have made it difficult to discuss.

Originally Posted by Freeshadow

Hitch: Dunning-Kruger; hell yeah, abso-frigging-lutely. As someone who mostly was (and still is) regarded as a person with weird and arcane interests I'm quite familiar with that. (although I hadn't; prior to some threads here known the name of said misassumptions. Esp. the part with "Everything I have no idea about is simple and doable in 15 minutes." (Dilbert's pointy-haired boss) is something I heard more often than I have nerves for. Also accord with that we can't excel at everything - that never was my point. I'm e. g. a "total doofus" at math - that's my biggest idiot-spot.
The frightening part (the 'let me out of this asylum' one) is that in following the logical rule: One needs at least basic knowledge of whatever one tries to do. The bar for "basic knowledge" seems to be on the best way to subterranean levels. And that's not only for
"specialist knowledge" (like as knowing how to copy a file as some of your self-appointed 'computer-savvy' clients don't.) it's for daily stuff and/or common sense. I meet people not knowing how to write a letter (or properly address an envelope) I am at a point where I stopped asking myself how stupid or ignorant people can be, because the answer gets worse.

Dennis: nice "problem" story. Definitely a woman I'd like to have a talk with

(Men!)

Vis-a-vis the basic knowledge--that's certainly true. It boggles me that so much in the world is taken for granted. We've exchanged knowing how to do things for knowing how to dial a cellphone. There's definitely a disinterest in knowing how to DO anything, from changing a tire to painting a wall. it's worrisome. If the apocalypse comes, kids, those of us that still know how to do things will be in higher demand than our aged states (at least, for me and Denny) would normally warrant.

The folks managing to survive Castro in Cuba are an object lesson in that; they have very old cars, because they can still be repaired with a modicum of knowledge, instead of doing everything through a computer hook-up, and the same is true of their washers, dryers, gas ranges, etc.

PHB (Pointy-Headed-Boss) syndrome makes us all suffer, and I doubt that there's anyone here who hasn't had to live with one, at one time or another.

I recently acquired a new W/D set; honestly, I'm fairly sure that Apollo 11 went to the moon and back with less computing power than these two things have.

Hitch

[ProDigit]

I earn $100.000 a year, and get a luxury car every 2 years.
Send me $25 for an instructional dvd, that teaches you absolutely nothing, and tells you you need to be in the top 2 percentage of sales people, and need to have at least 4000 people on your Facebook page.

[DMcCunney]

Originally Posted by covingtoncat73

Hee. I'm pretty much down to just my brother and his family and one cousin for family I'll talk to. The rest ofvthe <strike>family</strike> Tennessee Williams play are too objectionable.

With the demise years back of my mother, I'm down to none.

As I understand the family history, great granddad emigrated from Ireland, set up as an undertaker in Philadelphia, and did pretty well, thanks. Granddad married out of the faith, and got disinherited by great granddad. Dad compounded the felony by marrying a British girl he met in the US during WWII. So I'm from the black sheep side of the clan, and there's another branch of the family I don't know from Adam.

Back when I still lived in Philly, a receptionist at the lab where I worked said "Do you have a relative who works here?" "Not that I know of..." My office was on the second floor. I was one the fourth floor one day (and I don't recall why), and passed a door labelled "Systems Science - W. D. McCunney" I knocked, and a chap about my height, build, age and coloring answered the door. I said "W. D. McCunney?" "Yes." "Pleased to meet you. I'm D. W. McCunney!"

We talked a bit and decided we must be cousins from the sundered sides of the family, but never narrowed it down farther.

It's interesting to know I have a batch of unknown relatives, but I have no particular interest in actually meeting them.
______
Dennis

[poohbear_nc]

PHB (Pointy-Headed-Boss) syndrome makes us all suffer, and I doubt that there's anyone here who hasn't had to live with one, at one time or another.

Has anyone else had the experience of their boss handing them a set of application forms for his (the boss) and his wife's Medicare Supplemental insurance policies - and being expected to fill them out? Because the boss is apparently unable to read & understand questions on the forms such as:

"Fill in the boxes with the information EXACTLY as it appears on your Medicare card."

[I think the wording on these forms are targeted to a 4th grade reading level.]

I was SO tempted to check the boxes for all those nasty, expensive diseases in the medical history section.

[DMcCunney]

Originally Posted by Hitch

There seems to be a dearth of "new" monsters that catch on. And if you think there aren't any werebears, you aren't spending REMOTELY enough time on LousyBookCovers. Werebears and every other type of were-critter, and then some.

Spare me. I know they are out there. I just doubt they'll become the Next Big (Dead) Thing.

I do my best to avoid LousyBookCovers. I'm a former print designer, with some notion of what a proper cover design is, and too much of what I see in the Indie/Self Published world is "Gouge out eyes with a spoon after viewing." I can do a pretty good job of spotting an indie/self published offering just by glancing at the cover. The best offerings aspire to mediocrity and don't quite reach it.

What kills me is: I know better. OTOH, I spent a silly amount of time looking at other CMSes, and ruled them out one by one. (FWIW, I'd spent an ABSURD amount of time assessing CMSes some years back, and it was disturbing to see that so many hadn't improved one iota). And, in fairness to Joomla, the part i find infuriating is made that way to ensure that know-nothings can use it to build a simple website. I wish that they had an in-between method of doing the same thing, because to my way of thinking, the way that they build nav menus takes longer to do than simply blooding coding them, the old school way.

It's probably possible to bypass the menus and hand code, but how you do so it likely buried where you need a backhoe to dig it up.

Yes. I was actually shocked, when I first started biting the bullet about the stuff I write--mostly "how-to" articles, blog pieces, etc.--and writing them "more accessibly," I couldn't believe that to target it to average, you'd have to aim at a 4th-6th grade reading level education. That's appalling.

See my earlier comment about the college graduate friend who couldn't do simple arithmetic without a calculator.

Part of the problem is that many (and possibly most) folks never learn to view reading as fun. It's a chore, done because they have to, and they acquire the bare minimum proficiency required.

So, how was the date? :-D

Non existent. I was spoken for, and as mentioned, while there are folks who enjoy being tied and gagged, I don't especially enjoy doing it.

The people I had in mind when I made the comment were some (male) co-workers on the event I was helping to run. Life would have been far easier had they been cuffed, gagged, and locked in a closet for the duration. (One special case might have gotten a glow-in-the-dark dildo as well.)

Oh, I dunno. I remember all the sociological fooferah about it, back when, how it was biased, yadda yadda. OTOH, I find it interesting that I'm only very, very rarely surprised when someone mentions their IQ--they always seem to fit about right.

Folks who mention it likely have a tolerably high one. Folks who don't won't talk about it.

Well, logic seems to be incorporated in the tests for IQ, and without logic, one is very poorly equipped in terms of problem-solving. I agree that the politically correct crowd have made it difficult to discuss.

Somebody's ox will be gored, no matter what stance you take.

I was in discussion elsewhere on the general topic, where a chap mentioned basically sailing through course work and getting high marks in school. He was complemented on how hard he must have worked to do that, and he was mystified. He'd barely worked at all. He was one of the really bright kids who Got It very quickly. I understood, because I'd been him years previous, and would read the assigned texts in the first two weeks and twiddle my thumbs in boredom thereafter. (I was introduced to Tolkien's Lord of the Rings by an English teacher who decided that if I was going to read something other than assigned texts in her class it should be something good, and handed me the Ballantine PB editions of the Trilogy. Bless her.)

But in our current society, we celebrate those who are more attractive, better athletes, better singers/dancers/musicians and the like, but shy away from the notion that some folks are simply smarter than others. I haven't quite reached the point of telling some complainers "You aren't good enough. You don't have what it takes. Those you complain about do better than you because they are better than you. Deal with it!", but the temptation is nearly irresistible

Vis-a-vis the basic knowledge--that's certainly true. It boggles me that so much in the world is taken for granted. We've exchanged knowing how to do things for knowing how to dial a cellphone. There's definitely a disinterest in knowing how to DO anything, from changing a tire to painting a wall. it's worrisome. If the apocalypse comes, kids, those of us that still know how to do things will be in higher demand than our aged states (at least, for me and Denny) would normally warrant.

<shrug> I'm reasonably capable because I'm mechanically inclined, and like knowing how things work and how the pieces fit together. I just like knowing things in general, and have a magpie mind full of all sorts of odd bits of information.

(My SO once got me a calligraphed button saying "Ohhh! Shiny facts!" after watching me dive down various Google rat holes. My biggest skill is probably knowing how to Look Stuff Up. That can be a mixed blessing. I am currently a director of a small company whose CEO is an old friend and decided I should be one. My actual role is "Guy who Bill calls whenever he doesn't know something, assuming I will." Generally, I do, but the conversations have sometimes been surreal.)

The folks managing to survive Castro in Cuba are an object lesson in that; they have very old cars, because they can still be repaired with a modicum of knowledge, instead of doing everything through a computer hook-up, and the same is true of their washers, dryers, gas ranges, etc.

You'll see similar things in places like Africa.

PHB (Pointy-Headed-Boss) syndrome makes us all suffer, and I doubt that there's anyone here who hasn't had to live with one, at one time or another.

I learned over time to nod politely, tell PHB what he wanted to hear, then do what I thought should be done, assuming he wouldn't know the difference.

I recently acquired a new W/D set; honestly, I'm fairly sure that Apollo 11 went to the moon and back with less computing power than these two things have.

Almost certainly. I'm pretty sure my old Palm TX PDA has more computing power than what went to the moon in the capsule. My desktop my well match the ground stations at mission control.
_______
Dennis

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by poohbear_nc

Has anyone else had the experience of their boss handing them a set of application forms for his (the boss) and his wife's Medicare Supplemental insurance policies - and being expected to fill them out? Because the boss is apparently unable to read & understand questions on the forms such as:

"Fill in the boxes with the information EXACTLY as it appears on your Medicare card."

[I think the wording on these forms are targeted to a 4th grade reading level.]

I was SO tempted to check the boxes for all those nasty, expensive diseases in the medical history section.

Nope, but I was once handed an entire application (incl. essay, mind you) for a 17-y.o. boy, to attend the University of Spoiled Children (USC in CAL, for anyone that hasn't had the,. uh, pleasure), and required to fill it out. Not merely complete the application, mind you, but ensure that he got IN. You just don't know the dark thoughts I entertained about that damn essay...

TBF, this was...ye gods. 1979? 80? And I'd just started working for this guy. He was still attempting to delegate what he construed as secretarial-type tasks to me, cuz, hey, I was the GIRL in the office. LOL.

(Oh, yeah...the kid got in. My work also got him in to several Ivy League schools. What slays me is that none of them noticed that I'd used the SAME essay I'd used, only a few short years <okay, slightly more than that> before, when I'd applied to and been accepted by, those same schools. It's not plagiarism if you're plagiarizing yourself, right?)

Hitch