Amazon's vertical integration/monopoly

[knc1]

Originally Posted by notimp

If we want to go more in a general direction - where Amazons push for more vertical integration is set to create some real problems, if coupled with economies of scale and the still very young concept of digital goods, we can do that as well.
I'm encouraged to write about this - because I just read a corresponding blog article that nudged me into this direction -

Link please, so others can read it for themselves.

Originally Posted by notimp

but maybe wasnt written in a way that would correspond to the realities of millennials.

In essence - it is the question, why an Amazon premium membership not only should buy us two day shipping, but also storage for our pictures, music streaming, exclusive TV series to bingewatch and of course - free book rentals. And a discounted Washington Post membership - and why not - better black friday deals as well.

Standard marketing techniques.
Not specific to Amazon.

Originally Posted by notimp

So the reason Amazon is doing this, are economies of scale.

Are you suggesting that only Amazon leverages economies of scale?

Originally Posted by notimp

Margins on digital goods tend to be very slim in general,

Reference link please.
Or is this more personal opinion written as if fact?

Originally Posted by notimp

but at scale - they are wonderful, because you do the work one time, and then hit distribute to millions. Also, economies of scale are great, because you dont care about the message so much (in a sense "quality"), you care about contact frequency, about the size of the ecosystem. And if you keep margins low enough you dont have to worry about startup competition, because the entry costs to compete with highly vertically integrated companies that communicate this as being a value for the consumer - is immensely high.

Again, not specific to Amazon.

Originally Posted by notimp

Which by the way - is also part of the reason, why the US is getting chip and pin almost a decade after the rest of the developed world.

Again, is this personal opinion written as fact?
Please quote a reference for the above statement.

Originally Posted by notimp

Funny story - maybe look it up sometime.

So give us a link!
We would be glad to read what you are basing your claims on.

Originally Posted by notimp

Now the point where the issues for the consumer start showing is, when content creation and content distribution start to merge, interests get conflicted.

Please clarify this statement.
What interests?
What sort of conflict?
Is this again personal opinion or do you have a reference we can read?

Originally Posted by notimp

Amazon kicking out Nvidia, Google and other competitors from their distribution platform

Please give a reference if this isn't just more personal opinion written as fact.

Originally Posted by notimp

is a move prompted by their interest to play a role in the content game.

Ah, **authors** create content.
Just what sort of game is this you are referring to?
Please be more descriptive.

Originally Posted by notimp

Amazon kicking out Kodi from their App Store ecosystem

References?

Originally Posted by notimp

can be seen as a move to prevent any forms of consumption on their devices, where they arent set up to take a cut of the profits. ("Our mp3 player only plays content streams!")

Who are you quoting?
Reference link(s) please.

Originally Posted by notimp

Amazon creating a new Book format only they can produce and distribute, and controlling every aspect from layout to inherent properties

Again, not specific to Amazon.

Originally Posted by notimp

(DRM gets pushed onto public domain books)

Links to examples?
Reference links?
Is this opinion written as fact again?

= = = =

So what?
If they are public domain, then Amazon isn't the only source of them.

Originally Posted by notimp

to the date it is published, should be seen as an attempt to get exclusive benefits (forms of ownership) over the eBook medium as well.

Amazon is not the only participant in the eBook medium.

Originally Posted by notimp

In the Amazon theme park

Please describe what you are characterizing as a "theme park".

Originally Posted by notimp

you get wonderfully cheep image hosting with your two day delivery plan, you get exclusive TV entertainment, produced by studios that were set up, because you really should buy more Kindle tablets, boxes, sticks and readers, but you shouldnt expect to know, that out there, there is a Google as well, that isnt a "content partner", you shouldnt expect that on a Fire TV you would be able to watch or discover content that, in any way, ventures outside the prebuild ecosystem for you to watch or discover content (called a storefront), and on Kindles - you really should buy the books Amazon can exclusively build - because, they are the best.

Tripe (not the type used in ethnic stews), presented in the same manner a Troll would use.
Please refer to the Troll defination quoted in post above.

Originally Posted by notimp

Now - back to the quality aspect.

Quality of what?

Originally Posted by notimp

Because Amazon doesnt want to carry the risk that comes with really running an online library for example,

Please provide reference if this isn't more personal opinion written as fact.

Originally Posted by notimp

they look at new ways to structure value -

What are you trying to describe with the phrase "structure value"?
"Value" is a subjective term, how are you claiming it can be structured?

Originally Posted by notimp

that are more in their favor. If you lend a book for example, in this new economy, this shouldnt count as having shown a token of interest - instead Amazon wants to pay by pages read. Presumably - because their metrics show, that on eReaders that would shift the value more towards the popular selfpublishing topics - that is - markets they already own.

Please provide the reference(s) you are using to show that Amazon owns the popular self publishing topics.
Or at least give us a link to the sales page of whatever it was you where smoking when you came up with the above personal opinion written as-if fact.

Originally Posted by notimp

Is the Amazon Appstore a good Appstore (curation, discovery, diversity).

Is that a question or a statement?

Originally Posted by notimp

Has the selfpublishing model (including their promotional campaigns to surface new content) resulted in something that challenges the older concepts in terms of quality, profits for authors at large, or diversity? (Similar problem to music streaming serivces?)

Just how are you finding similarities between these two fields?

Originally Posted by notimp

On the TV content front - I dont have to ask - they select their scripts on the basis of being "not yet mainstream", "slightly controversial" but "overall socially accepted" -

Ambiguous, again.

Originally Posted by notimp

which, by their own accounts (speaking in front of German media summits),

Links to references please.

Originally Posted by notimp

regarding their metrics shows -

Again, provide reference links.

Originally Posted by notimp

that those have the best potential of becoming hits.

Now is this - and what aspects of that are - in our larger cultural interest?

No one can say, since you haven't provided any verifiable background.

Originally Posted by notimp

They buy Jeremy Clarkson (brand core: enfant terrible, journalist) presumably for the content aspect, but then have him create commercials for the Fire TV and Drone delivery instead.

References please.

Originally Posted by notimp

In their own storytelling they address this, by having him say - that he had a lot of free time this summer - and really got to like his Fire TV during that time. It was so easy.

( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S7mGbRkUP7Q (Popular german commercial for AOL that follows the exact same storybook. Produced in 1999. ))

And this is something new?

Originally Posted by notimp

Is Amazon content really set up to be able to become "the best content possible"?

Is this one of Amazon's goals?
How do you know?
Where are the references.

Originally Posted by notimp

Is them exclusively owning the most current (and presumably all future) eBook format on the Kindle a good thing.

Not possible, they aren't the exclusive providers of eBooks.

Originally Posted by notimp

If there is as much as counter viewpoint - this is the time where I challenge you to formulate it. Write a similar posting to this one - or my posting before this one.

A perfect challenge to be placed on a forum for practicing Trolls.

Originally Posted by notimp

Dont just feel cosy in a world - where you seem to get more and more, without having to pay for any of it. But only for all of it. It's so easy.

How does that have anything to do with the price of tea in China?

[johnnyb]

Originally Posted by HarryT

Please stop these misleading posts. Amazon give a publisher a free choice in whether or not a book has DRM. I think you know that as well as I do! Amazon are not "pushing DRM onto public domain books".

Given that several bigger German publishers have abandonned DRM but their new releases still show up on Amazon with DRM makes that kind of a moot argument (may have more force in markets where all major publishers still insist on DRM and Amazon need not worty about them choosed DRM free)...
Side effect on the German market has been a major push for all other bendors except Amazon, maybe gets them to reconsider their stance...

[knc1]

Originally Posted by notimp

If there is as much as counter viewpoint - this is the time where I challenge you to formulate it. Write a similar posting to this one - or my posting before this one.

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[HarryT]

Originally Posted by johnnyb

Given that several bigger German publishers have abandonned DRM but their new releases still show up on Amazon with DRM makes that kind of a moot argument (may have more force in markets where all major publishers still insist on DRM and Amazon need not worty about them choosed DRM free)...

But again, Johnny, it's the uploader's choice whether or not a book has DRM. Amazon don't "impose" DRM on a book as notimp wrongly claims. The uploader decides.

[Cinisajoy]

Totally agree knc.

[Cinisajoy]

Ok guys,
I have a confusion. That one person said Amazon offers "free two day shipping". Well now I haven't been to Amazon for physical goods since Friday but as I recall one has to be a prime member to get that "free two day shipping". I think we paid $100 to get prime.
So now how is "free two day shipping" anything more than a benefit we paid for?

Now let's see: Amazon offers me cheaper prices and guaranteed (pretty much) shipping dates to shop with them. What is so bad about that?

Heck Big Lots and several other stores send me coupons to shop at their stores instead of the competition. Are they evil too?

[hfpop]

Originally Posted by Cinisajoy

So now how is "free two day shipping" anything more than a benefit we paid for?

Just a semantics issue here. Since we paid for it, this is technically no longer free, right?

[knc1]

Originally Posted by hfpop

Just a semantics issue here. Since we paid for it, this is technically no longer free, right?

A marketing technique to increase the revenue on related items.

See also: "Loss Leader"

[dickloraine]

Sorry, this gets out of controll. How are we supposed to answer to all of the side issues? Self-Publishing is a HUGE topic on itself. Amazon is the biggest player there, shure. But they gave good conditions and created a big market. But they don't own ANY of the rights. The authors do. That's the point about self publishing.

Should we really talk about tv production? How do you think HBO creates its shows? Or Hollywood movies? It is another HUGE topic in itself. And even if you look at something like the "curated" european movie and tv production, that system has as many flaws as the open market (maybe even more).

Where did you get the idea, that kindle unlimited is a library or even works/ should work like one? It is a business model, like music streaming. And it has to make money. For amazon and for the authors, because if it doesn't work for authors, nobody would give books into it.

Funny enough, but Bertelsmann became big because they had the "Bertelsmann Klub", where you spend some money to become a member and then you had to buy a book a month to very good conditions

[eschwartz]

I am not going to go through a point-by-point of each place where you have assumed we have seen the same proofs you take for granted (and thus, we doubt exists). knc1 has already done that.

Here are the points I would like to make:

Originally Posted by notimp

Amazon creating a new book format only they can produce and distribute, and controlling every aspect from layout to inherent properties (DRM gets pushed onto public domain books) to the date it is published, should be seen as an attempt to get exclusive benefits (forms of ownership) over the eBook medium as well.

This doesn't really fit in with the previous claims/comparisons which you made.
There, you were discussing the idea of kicking out competitors from your own sales platform (common business sense).
But when it comes to ebooks, Amazon has never had competition on their Kindle Store platform. And they have always allowed, and still allow, sideloading books.

Oh, well, you can't sideload KFX purchased elsewhere. I think I have already mentioned that that only matters if you care about KFX. Which isn't a given.

In addition to the fact that ebook exclusivity simply isn't affected by KFX, you also haven't explained why I should think content sellers offering exclusive content and features should be considered a bad thing.

Now - back to the quality aspect. Because Amazon doesnt want to carry the risk that comes with really running an online library for example, they look at new ways to structure value - that are more in their favor. If you lend a book for example, in this new economy, this shouldnt count as having shown a token of interest - instead Amazon wants to pay by pages read. Presumably - because their metrics show, that on eReaders that would shift the value more towards the popular selfpublishing topics - that is - markets they already own.

I'm sorry, you've completely lost me here.

Aren't libraries government-run, non-profit services for the public benefit?
Not really sure what that has to do with Amazon, or why they'd want to run one.

And paying by pages read is something only applicable for their subscription service. How is that shifting value away from the tradpub market?
(People who subscribe to Kindle Unlimited are not the same people who usually buy tradpub books. They tend to be people who have been buying, or are at least amenable to buying, indie books.)

And I am really confused about what this has to do with the hardware E-Ink devices as a vehicle of vertical integration/monopoly.

...

I said before, if you want to discuss the suitability and usefulness of KFX as a modern ebook format, go discuss it in the Kindle Formats forum please.
So I'll say now, if you want to discuss the politics of indie publishing and Amazon's subscription services, go discuss it in the General Discussions forum. We (MobileRead) have already discussed the topic there in depth -- and in the News forum -- but I am sure people will be willing to discuss it further.

I think it is pretty unfair of you to come to the Kindle Developer's Corner, set up a conversation, based on your first post which started this and which I split into its own thread:

You all missed another important discussion here already - perhaps, because you are looking so intently at the "service" part - when you are discussing what this community provides -

That amazon now controls

- the format (proprietary nature of kfx (format))
- the distribution (only Amazon can distribute kfx)
and
- production (only Amazon can produce kfx)

really warrants a discussion, that did not take place in here at all.

and then end up discussing Amazon in ways that really have nothing to do with our subforum at all.
We don't *do* Kindle Unlimited, sales metrics, indiepub politics, or anything of that extended ilk here.

...

Now I understand from the tone of some things you said previously, that you feel I as a moderator am trying to shut you down.
So this time, I will clarify.

I am not saying this as a moderator.
In fact, I will not be acting as a moderator here. I am part of the discussion, I am biased, therefore if I think moderator action needs to be taken in this thread, I will report it and have someone else take care of it, who isn't involved.
(Okay, I will probably feel comfortable enforcing the limits on image posting size, should there be such a need.)

And I may do just that -- act on my rights as a MobileRead plebeian to request moderator action and possibly have this thread moved/closed/patrolled-for-on-topicness -- if I as a MobileRead plebeian continue to feel people are playing fast and loose with the topic of this subforum.

Anyone who feels that way could do so, and I suspect I may not be the only one who is feeling somewhat lost at the general non-applicability of some of the things you have brought up. But I may be the only one who has vocalized that -- yet.
EDIT: hi dickloraine

[knc1]

It is hard to be "on point" when it is impossible to determine what the point is.

I admit the connection(s):
Hominy -> Menudo -> Tripe -> post contents
might have been a bit obscure.

[Rizla]

Originally Posted by knc1

My own first impression of notimp's first post:
Ref: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll

You don't agree with his view-point, therefore he is a troll. Okay...

Originally Posted by johnnyb

I have to admit, that sounds a bit strange to me as I always thought one wouldn't have to love the companies manufacturing the products one uses... Guess that all changed with Apple and Amazon...

Yep. They have a weird emotional attachment to the company they buy products from.

Originally Posted by HarryT

The only response you're going to get is "if you don't like it, buy something else", which is sound advice for anyone who doesn't like something.

i.e. "shut up", stop debating, as noimp acurately identified you as stating previously. If that doesn't doesn't work, declare the poster off-topic, or a troll. Then all the other lovers-of-whatever-company cheer so you know you are right.

Anyway, KFX cometh. I wonder Amazon's timing will be. I don't think they really give a rat's ass what Amazon users on this forum think, you know, people that want to back up their books or add custom fonts. Maybe they'll bundle it with some wondrous new gimmick, or maybe they don't even think the tiny percentage of relatively technically-advanced kindle users on this forum and elsewhere are important enough to even attempt to sugar the pill.

[knc1]

Originally Posted by Rizla

You don't agree with his view-point, therefore he is a troll. Okay...
- - - - -

The label isn't that easy to dismiss.

Compare the content (and lack of factual references) with the definition:

a person who sows discord on the Internet by starting arguments or upsetting people, by posting inflammatory,[1] extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community ....

It seems a pretty exact description to date.

Please recall that notimp first posted in the closed Kindle jail break thread, which was certainly an off-topic place to post the concerns mentioned.
The only apparent reason for posting there was it was the hottest thread at the moment.

You will also recall that notimp refused to start a thread on this subject himself, a moderator had to do it for him.

= = = =

You also forgot to quote my disclaimer, that notimp may not be doing it intentionally.

= = = =

When, if, you can find where I have disagreed with anything other than (supposed) facts, please include a quote of my post.

[pdurrant]

Moderator Notice

All members should remember that name-calling is not permitted at MobileRead. Calling someone a troll is specifically included in this guideline.

If any member thinks that another member is posting in bad faith, they should report the problem to the moderators, and should not make accusations in public.

[HarryT]

A gentle reminder to all participants that MR's rules do not permit you to call anyone a "troll". If you believe someone is exhibiting posting behaviour synonymous to that which a troll might do, please click the "Report Post" button and the moderating team will deal with it.

Many thanks.