What are eBooks?

[pdurrant]

Originally Posted by eschwartz

Perhaps he believes Scalzi is part of group #3

Hmm.... he's good, but hardly in the top earners league of authors.

[DiapDealer]

Nobody (in their right mind) likes to read grammatically incorrect, mispelled, amateurish drivel. So conversely ... unless someone can honestly tell me that they happily (and repeatedly) volunteer to read the grammatically correct, immaculately spelled, professionally-proofed work of an author whose writing does absolutely nothing for them, then it's basically a non-starter. Again... unless you buy and read with no personal filters/vetting whatsoever, then the plethora of grammatically incorrect, mispelled, amateurish drivel out there isn't quite the existential threat to finding good books that many try to make it out to be.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by Cinisajoy

Imprints I understand.
Tor in itself no.
Harlequin and Silhouette are both strictly romance.
So again specialty.
Do they have people that read the manuscripts yes.
I think we are doing the word thing again.
When most people (specialized forums aside) say traditional, they are generally talking about only publishers that do the big hardbacks.

So who is Baen a division of?

The fact that Baen are a specialty publisher does not (IMHO at least) mean that they are not also a traditional publisher. They publish books: hardbacks, paperbacks and ebooks. I don't what what more is required to be considered "traditional"!

[AnemicOak]

Originally Posted by Cinisajoy

When most people (specialized forums aside) say traditional, they are generally talking about only publishers that do the big hardbacks.

Really? I don't know who most people are, but most people in my world* think of traditional publishing as publishing that follows a traditional process when it comes to agents, submissions, contracts, royalties, advances and publishing workflow and produce books that are available through traditional distribution channels, which publishers like Baen (for the most part) & Harlequin (a division of HarperCollins) do.



* That is to say most people I personally am acquainted with who care about where a book comes from at all. I reality most people don't care who published the book they stop in to buy at B&N or another bookstore, big box store, etc.

[Cinisajoy]

Originally Posted by AnemicOak

Really? I don't know who most people are, but most people in my world* think of traditional publishing as publishing that follows a traditional process when it comes to agents, submissions, contracts, royalties, advances and publishing workflow and produce books that are available through traditional distribution channels, which publishers like Baen (for the most part) & Harlequin (a division of HarperCollins) do.



* That is to say most people in my world who care about where a book comes from at all. I reality most people don't care who published the book they stop in to buy at B&N or another bookstore, big box store, etc.

We obviously talk to two different sets of people.
The ones I talk to want either the house, the animal or it is a bird or an HC on their books.

Oh and for the record I had never heard of Baen or Tor until I found forums.
I also think of Harlequin as paperback.

[AnemicOak]

Originally Posted by Cinisajoy

Oh and for the record I had never heard of Baen or Tor until I found forums.

I'd only expect that you might have heard of them if you're a Science Fiction or Fantasy reader. Others in the genre you may or may not have heard of are Ace, Daw, Del-Rey & Orbit (there are of course others).

I also think of Harlequin as paperback.

They publish mass market & trade paperback and also Hardcover. Just like any publisher a lot of stuff doesn't get a hardcover release. The number of traditionally published authors who get a hardcover release are a fraction of the total number of traditionally published authors.

[Cinisajoy]

Originally Posted by AnemicOak

I'd only expect that you might have heard of them if you're a Science Fiction or Fantasy reader. Others in the genre you may or may not have heard of are Ace, Daw, Del-Rey & Orbit (there are of course others).



They publish mass market & trade paperback and also Hardcover. Just like any publisher a lot of stuff doesn't get a hardcover release. The number of traditionally published authors who get a hardcover release are a fraction of the total number of traditionally published authors.

Thanks for the clarification.

[Catlady]

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

Nobody (in their right mind) likes to read grammatically incorrect, mispelled, amateurish drivel. So conversely ... unless someone can honestly tell me that they happily (and repeatedly) volunteer to read the grammatically correct, immaculately spelled, professionally-proofed work of an author whose writing does absolutely nothing for them, then it's basically a non-starter. Again... unless you buy and read with no personal filters/vetting whatsoever, then the plethora of grammatically incorrect, mispelled, amateurish drivel out there isn't quite the existential threat to finding good books that many try to make it out to be.

Of course it is. The more garbage out there, the harder it is to find something worthwhile.

[kennyc]

Members are reminded that references to one's ignore list are not allowed.

[kennyc]

Originally Posted by Catlady

Of course it is. The more garbage out there, the harder it is to find something worthwhile.

Nah, the creme rises to the top. There has always been garbage out there way before ebooks and self-publishing. Unless of course you are taking it upon your self the examine and review everything being published.

[kennyc]

Originally Posted by HarryT

The fact that Baen are a specialty publisher does not (IMHO at least) mean that they are not also a traditional publisher. They publish books: hardbacks, paperbacks and ebooks. I don't what what more is required to be considered "traditional"!

Correct. There are many small press and even pay to publish 'traditional' publishers.
Which is part of my position in saying that the traditionally published are not necessarily any 'better' than self-published or independently published.

You have to know which trusted sources to use for reviews, recommendations, etc. regardless of publishing source.

The thing about today's technology is that it can take the process down to the individual author level and the convenience is definitely allowing for more books out there whether traditional or non-traditional published.

[Cinisajoy]

Originally Posted by HarryT

I don't think he claimed that it was either high or low; simply that is was "not representative", whatever that means.



I do believe it justifies the conclusion I've reached that the majority of self-published authors can't (or at least choose not to) write books that have correct grammar, spelling and punctuation, and that's a hurdle that has to be crossed before I'm even willing to look at how good a story-teller they are.

HarryT,
We finally found something to agree on.
Though if my internal proofreader is kicking in, it means one is not a good story writer.
The story might be fabulous in audio if it is just BAD spelling and punctuation but I will never know if I keep getting thrown out of the story by errors.

The good news is, one pretty much just needs to look at the first page to see about the grammar.

One of my triggers for not picking up a non-fiction book is this line. "Congratulations for downloading this book." If I see that, it is almost a guarantee that it is a copy and pasted from the Internet in backwards English.

[issybird]

Originally Posted by Cinisajoy

HarryT,
One of my triggers for not picking up a non-fiction book is this line. "Congratulations for downloading this book." If I see that, it is almost a guarantee that it is a copy and pasted from the Internet in backwards English.

I read a lot of non-fiction (history) and I don't think any self-pubbed non-fiction can be good, ever. Non-fiction takes resources; it takes research; it takes skills, not just talent. You can't just churn it out in the garret.

You also have to watch out for putative publishers who are really just fronts for vanity publishing. They tend to clean up the grammar, spelling and punctuation, but that only raises the experience to mediocre at best.

[AnemicOak]

Originally Posted by issybird

I read a lot of non-fiction (history) and I don't think any self-pubbed non-fiction can be good, ever. Non-fiction takes resources; it takes research; it takes skills, not just talent. You can't just churn it out in the garret.

I think it would be tough to do, but if a know subject matter expert put something out on their own I don't know if I'd go with the can't be good ever statement. So many trad-pubbed non-fiction (history) books disappoint with errors because a lot of publishers don't bother to hire someone to check sources or facts and go with the assumption that the writer is an expert and knows best. With many self publishers hiring their own copy editors and proof readers now making the possibility of a good quality book higher I'd say that never is a long time.

[fjtorres]

Originally Posted by HarryT

You seriously don't think that there are any traditionally-published authors who are satisfied with their contracts? As I mentioned earlier in the thread, I buy a lot of SF/Fantasy books published by Baen. Most Baen authors seem to have been with them for a very long time and be happy enough with the deal they get. I see no rush of Baen authors into self-publishing, despite the fact that Baen's contracts are non-exclusive, and hence allow such sales.

Baen is a tiny company, working in a small corner of a small market.
They put out maybe 50-60 new titles a year.
The randy penguin puts out well over 15,000 titles a year.

Baen is the very definition of outlier, both for readers and authors. They don't even operate out of NYC or London.

I would hardly set them up as an example of what tradpub *is* but I would (and do) hold them up as an example of what tradpub *should* be.