Amazon's vertical integration/monopoly

[johnnyb]

Originally Posted by Cinisajoy

And I wouldn't want to irritate hominy lovers.

Nothing against you!
But by that logic one would have to be an Amazon lover to be a Kindle user...
I have to admit, that sounds a bit strange to me as I always thought one wouldn't have to love the companies manufacturing the products one uses... Guess that all changed with Apple and Amazon...

[Cinisajoy]

Originally Posted by johnnyb

Nothing against you!
But by that logic one would have to be an Amazon lover to be a Kindle user...
I have to admit, that sounds a bit strange to me as I always thought one wouldn't have to love the companies manufacturing the products one uses... Guess that all changed with Apple and Amazon...

No that just meant I wouldn't go to a "hominy lovers" forum and scream how evil hominy is. They would probably run me out on a rail.

Ps: Hominy was forum friendly. My original thought would have broken some rules.

[johnnyb]

Originally Posted by Cinisajoy

No that just meant I wouldn't go to a "hominy lovers" forum and scream how evil hominy is. They would probably run me out on a rail.

Ps: Hominy was forum friendly. My original thought would have broken some rules.

I'd love to hear it though...

Still, this is not an Amazon lovers forum, at least not officially...

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by johnnyb

I'd love to hear it though...

Still, this is not an Amazon lovers forum, at least not officially...

Indeed it isn't. You can like the product without having to "love" Amazon. This is a forum that's populated, at least in the majority, by people who like using Kindles, so it's pointless to come here and start ranting about how evil Amazon are. The only response you're going to get is "if you don't like it, buy something else", which is sound advice for anyone who doesn't like something.

[johnnyb]

Originally Posted by HarryT

Indeed it isn't. You can like the product without having to "love" Amazon. This is a forum that's populated, at least in the majority, by people who like using Kindles, so it's pointless to come here and start ranting about how evil Amazon are. The only response you're going to get is "if you don't like it, buy something else", which is sound advice for anyone who doesn't like something.

But isn't it conceivable that one could use a Kindle, even like using it and still be at odds with the way Amazon acts in regards to the things the OP mentioned?

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by johnnyb

But isn't it conceivable that one could use a Kindle, even like using it and still be at odds with the way Amazon acts in regards to the things the OP mentioned?

Of course, but claiming that Amazon are destroying society (or whatever the claim was) is rather an extreme extrapolation from the introduction of a new file format, don't you think?

[knc1]

Originally Posted by HarryT

Of course, but claiming that Amazon are destroying society (or whatever the claim was) is rather an extreme extrapolation from the introduction of a new file format, don't you think?

Yes.
And the reason behind my "the end of the world" comment.
Treating it as if it where "the end of the world" is more than a bit extreme.

[Rizla]

Originally Posted by eschwartz

What stifling of opinions? I think I am allowed to hold a different opinion than yours.

But you did try to shut noimp down And I pulled you up about it. You claimed his post was off-topic and I went into detail and cited at length from noimp's post to show that he was not off-topic. And so what if he was off-topic? This is mobileread

I would like to point out that the one and only person who has actually been forcibly shut down and/or censored and/or prevented from saying whatever crossed his/her mind...

... is me.
And that was for crossing the line into rudeness.

Do you mean me "shutting down" you. Then no, I corrected you as being wrong, not rude. Anyway, I enjoy your contributions

[Rizla]

Originally Posted by notimp

First the usual playful antagonization - "hard to understand" is a euphemism for "hard to put into one camp or the other".

You bring genuine debate where there generally is none. Well done!

To explain my position -

I contemplate - that by increasing intellectual ownership over the entire production (the analogy is "printing the master copy") and distribution chain with .kfx - Amazon is overreaching its promoted role as a "distributer" and "manager/facilitator" on the sector.

Its intent with .kfx is not to distribute works of culture, it is to own them (even in "a new sense" if you must), and to control every (to them business related) aspect of them.

I have mixed feelings on the subject. Consider Apple: They created an "ecosystem" that allowed the monetization of digital music downloads. They did that by creating a walled-garden. I'm not sure what else they could have done it.

Amazon is doing a similar thing with ebooks. It's not an ideal solution, but what other solution is there?

One alternative is the group of retailers in Germany who use the Tolino software as a delivery system. I prefer this to the American model which is practically a monopoly (queue screaming definitions of "monopoly." Actually it's a fun board-game grammarians).

Anyway, what can you do? I do wish Amazon would actually innovate from their stupendously dominant market position. But they don't care about hardware innovation. They dumped the DX. OMG they brought back buttons Their e-readers have made little progress and they have become the champion of the low-price throwaway tablet. Also their software is deplorably and unnecessarily limited. They don't want to push the field, and they are blocking others from doing so. But that's another story.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by Rizla

I do wish Amazon would actually innovate from their stupendously dominant market position. But they don't care about hardware innovation.

That's an exceedingly odd claim given the fact that Amazon own LiquaVista, who are perhaps THE leading company in the world when it comes to innovative screen research. What reading device company other than Amazon is doing similar research? It's perverse in the extreme to claim that the only company who actually is doing research in this field, isn't doing so

You can't produce these things on demand; research takes time.

[johnnyb]

Originally Posted by HarryT

Of course, but claiming that Amazon are destroying society (or whatever the claim was) is rather an extreme extrapolation from the introduction of a new file format, don't you think?

That is partly true but partly also, im my opinion, oversimplifies the points the OP has been trying to make. Amazon have not simply introduced “a new file format”. They have introduced a file format that promises new features at the cost of freedom (on the alf-using user side as well as the publisher side) albeit there being no necessity. And Amazon have introduced this file format only after having lured enough people into their ecosystem... Remember when there were no real restrictions in place to prevent jailbreaking or when swapping fonts was only a matter of copying a file to the Kindle file system root? History has shown that Amazon, after years of lenience, is becoming ever more determined on closing their system in every way possible (while not improving the user experience to the same degree) and kfx is just their most recent and most aggressive attempt. Having started restricting additional software features to store-bought books some time ago, the introduction of kfx marks the point where more or less basic features (the truth is that Amazon have been only catching up with the introduction of better typesetting and hyphenation) are tied to a new (undocumented) format with encryption and cannot be taken advantage of otherwise, which basically means that if you stop buying books from Amazon, you also start devaluing your device...
People may say that, well, you can't have it all (either you can sync your brought books across devices or you can to treat the with a calibre plugin to enable hyphenation etc.) but the point is that you absolutely can have it all, you just need to continue to purchase each and every one of your books from Amazon.
I sincerely hope that Amazon will change their policies and restrictions but right now I think, discussion of these more recent changes is absolutely legitimate.

[eschwartz]

Originally Posted by Rizla

But you did try to shut noimp down And I pulled you up about it. You claimed his post was off-topic and I went into detail and cited at length from noimp's post to show that he was not off-topic. And so what if he was off-topic? This is mobileread

Not really, I strongly expressed my belief he should either stop going off-topic, OR provide a token effort to justify it as on-topic.

Do you mean me "shutting down" you. Then no, I corrected you as being wrong, not rude. Anyway, I enjoy your contributions

I am referring to moderator actions, actually. Hence my use of the sentence that followed the one you quoted. The one that looked like this:

Originally Posted by eschwartz

Unless, of course, @notimp actually meant he found it "highly disturbing and in essence amoral" that I got moderated during one of my replies to him.

I find it highly unlikely that any reasonable interpretation of that sentence would lead anyone to believe the "moderated" was anyone but an actual "moderator".

That would be the forcible censorship, on account of @notimp has been saying "the moderators are being mean!!!!" which is a general indication that moderator powers are being brought out... so I just thought I'd mention that the only actual instance of that happening was against me.

[eschwartz]

Originally Posted by johnnyb

That is partly true but partly also, im my opinion, oversimplifies the points the OP has been trying to make. Amazon have not simply introduced “a new file format”. They have introduced a file format that promises new features at the cost of freedom (on the alf-using user side as well as the publisher side) albeit there being no necessity.

No lack of freedom for me. AZW3 is still available.
And people said the same thing about AZW3, once. And look where that got us.

And Amazon have introduced this file format only after having lured enough people into their ecosystem... Remember when there were no real restrictions in place to prevent jailbreaking or when swapping fonts was only a matter of copying a file to the Kindle file system root?

While I do not appreciate the new restrictions on jailbreaking, I am sympathetic about their need to restrict sideloaded fonts.
The font hacks described here can make your device malfunction -- their effects are quite invasive.

Amazon has the responsibility to make sure that their devices resilient to malfunctioning.
That being said, users should have the ability to unlock their device and tinker with it (and run the risk of breaking it) if they want to.


Same reason the collections database was moved to the system partition.
People exploited the unofficial feature, and someone messed up their device with it, and Amazon restricted it from being accessed without access to the firmware.

History has shown that Amazon, after years of lenience, is becoming ever more determined on closing their system in every way possible (while not improving the user experience to the same degree) and kfx is just their most recent and most aggressive attempt. Having started restricting additional software features to store-bought books some time ago, the introduction of kfx marks the point where more or less basic features (the truth is that Amazon have been only catching up with the introduction of better typesetting and hyphenation) are tied to a new (undocumented) format with encryption and cannot be taken advantage of otherwise, which basically means that if you stop buying books from Amazon, you also start devaluing your device...

I don't consider those basic features. I consider them advanced extras, together with user-chosen fonts.
I devalue them all equally, not my device.

Plus -- my device still does everything it did when I bought it. Devaluing means taking something away, not adding something new but only under certain conditions.

[notimp]

If we want to go more in a general direction - where Amazons push for more vertical integration is set to create some real problems, if coupled with economies of scale and the still very young concept of digital goods, we can do that as well. I'm encouraged to write about this - because I just read a corresponding blog article that nudged me into this direction - but maybe wasnt written in a way that would correspond to the realities of millennials.

In essence - it is the question, why an Amazon premium membership not only should buy us two day shipping, but also storage for our pictures, music streaming, exclusive TV series to bingewatch and of course - free book rentals. And a discounted Washington Post membership - and why not - better black friday deals as well.

So the reason Amazon is doing this, are economies of scale. Margins on digital goods tend to be very slim in general, but at scale - they are wonderful, because you do the work one time, and then hit distribute to millions. Also, economies of scale are great, because you dont care about the message so much (in a sense "quality"), you care about contact frequency, about the size of the ecosystem. And if you keep margins low enough you dont have to worry about startup competition, because the entry costs to compete with highly vertically integrated companies that communicate this as being a value for the consumer - is immensely high.

Which by the way - is also part of the reason, why the US is getting chip and pin almost a decade after the rest of the developed world. Funny story - maybe look it up sometime.

Now the point where the issues for the consumer start showing is, when content creation and content distribution start to merge, interests get conflicted.

Amazon kicking out Nvidia, Google and other competitors from their distribution platform is a move prompted by their interest to play a role in the content game.

Amazon kicking out Kodi from their App Store ecosystem can be seen as a move to prevent any forms of consumption on their devices, where they arent set up to take a cut of the profits. ("Our mp3 player only plays content streams!")

Amazon creating a new book format only they can produce and distribute, and controlling every aspect from layout to inherent properties (DRM gets pushed onto public domain books) to the date it is published, should be seen as an attempt to get exclusive benefits (forms of ownership) over the eBook medium as well.

In the Amazon theme park you get wonderfully cheep image hosting with your two day delivery plan, you get exclusive TV entertainment, produced by studios that were set up, because you really should buy more Kindle tablets, boxes, sticks and readers, but you shouldnt expect to know, that out there, there is a Google as well, that isnt a "content partner", you shouldnt expect that on a Fire TV you would be able to watch or discover content that, in any way, ventures outside the prebuild ecosystem for you to watch or discover content (called a storefront), and on Kindles - you really should buy the books Amazon can exclusively build - because, they are the best.

Now - back to the quality aspect. Because Amazon doesnt want to carry the risk that comes with really running an online library for example, they look at new ways to structure value - that are more in their favor. If you lend a book for example, in this new economy, this shouldnt count as having shown a token of interest - instead Amazon wants to pay by pages read. Presumably - because their metrics show, that on eReaders that would shift the value more towards the popular selfpublishing topics - that is - markets they already own.

Is the Amazon Appstore a good Appstore (curation, discovery, diversity).

Has the selfpublishing model (including their promotional campaigns to surface new content) resulted in something that challenges the older concepts in terms of quality, profits for authors at large, or diversity? (Similar problem to music streaming serivces?)

On the TV content front - I dont have to ask - they select their scripts on the basis of being "not yet mainstream", "slightly controversial" but "overall socially accepted" - which, by their own accounts (speaking in front of German media summits), regarding their metrics shows - that those have the best potential of becoming hits.

Now is this - and what aspects of that are - in our larger cultural interest?

They buy Jeremy Clarkson (brand core: enfant terrible, journalist) presumably for the content aspect, but then have him create commercials for the Fire TV and Drone delivery instead. In their own storytelling they address this, by having him say - that he had a lot of free time this summer - and really got to like his Fire TV during that time. It was so easy.

( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S7mGbRkUP7Q (Popular german commercial for AOL that follows the exact same storybook. Produced in 1999. ))

Is Amazon content really set up to be able to become "the best content possible"? Is them exclusively owning the most current (and presumably all future) eBook format on the Kindle (most popular reading device for long format content) a good thing.

If there is as much as counter viewpoint - this is the time where I challenge you to formulate it. Write a similar posting to this one - or my posting before this one.

Dont just feel cosy in a world - where you seem to get more and more, without having to pay for any of it. But only for all of it. It's so easy. And by actually loosing options. And certain product features.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by notimp

Amazon creating a new Book format only they can produce and distribute, and controlling every aspect from layout to inherent properties (DRM gets pushed onto public domain books) to the date it is published, should be seen as an attempt to get exclusive benefits (forms of ownership) over the eBook medium as well.

Please stop these misleading posts. Amazon give a publisher a free choice in whether or not a book has DRM. I think you know that as well as I do! Amazon are not "pushing DRM onto public domain books".