Help punctuating this sentence please?

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by Hitch

"Ken" almost stands in a class by itself, as it's not what I really meant as "dialect." It's a word. It's like...a German in a book saying "hund" for dog. That wouldn't faze me. Of course, in this country, we see it used in various books for "can," rather than KNOW. I probably oughtn't to have selected Scottish as my pet peeve, but with Historical Romance, it seems to be the most-abused form of English dialect. HOWEVER, I could list a boatload of heavily-overwrought abuses of "Southern-speak" from the US.

I often wonder how readers for whom English isn't a first language cope with Dickens's "dialect" writing, such as this example from "The Pickwick Papers", where Mr Weller offers these touching words of advice on matrimony to his son Sam:

“I’m a goin’ to leave you, Samivel, my boy, and there’s no telling ven I shall see you again. Your mother-in-law may ha’ been too much for me, or a thousand things may have happened by the time you next hears any news o’ the celebrated Mr. Veller o’ the Bell Savage. The family name depends wery much upon you, Samivel, and I hope you’ll do wot’s right by it. Upon all little pints o’ breedin’, I know I may trust you as vell as if it was my own self. So I’ve only this here one little bit of adwice to give you. If ever you gets to up’ards o’ fifty, and feels disposed to go a marryin’ anybody—no matter who—just you shut yourself up in your own room, if you’ve got one, and pison yourself off hand. Hangin’s wulgar, so don’t you have nothin’ to say to that. Pison yourself, Samivel, my boy, pison yourself, and you’ll be glad on it arterwards.” With these affecting words, Mr. Weller looked steadfastly on his son, and turning slowly upon his heel, disappeared from his sight.

Would it be obvious to a non-native speaker than "pison = poison", "arterwards = afterwards", and so on, I wonder? I don't think a native speaker would have any trouble with it.

I believe I'm right in saying that Dickens was the first author (in the English language at least) to try to represent dialect (in this case a London "Cockney" accent) in this way.

Mark Twain is perhaps a little more extreme in his representation of "southern" American speech with stuff like this from "Huckleberry Finn":

"Say, who is you? Whar is you? Dog my cats ef I didn' hear sumf'n. Well, I know what I's gwyne to do: I's gwyne to set down here and listen tell I hears it agin."

[Cinisajoy]

HarryT,
I noticed you picked two 19th century books. I do believe my grandmother read both in school and had no problems.
Now as an English speaker, even I had to read the Dickens passage twice. I am going to assume by the time the reader gets to that passage they will know the speaker is German.
Yes, it makes a difference.
Twain is the same way.
Just pulled from the book as a quote, it is hard to read. In the book, it flows more naturally.

Now for some old time "southern black English" dialect, might I recommend Uncle Remus.
That one needs to be read out loud to prevent trying to correct the English.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by Cinisajoy

Now as an English speaker, even I had to read the Dickens passage twice. I am going to assume by the time the reader gets to that passage they will know the speaker is German.

He isn't German. He's a Cockney - a Londoner . Dickens spent hours walking around London, and tried to accurately reproduce the speech he heard, particularly that of working people such as Mr Weller in the above passage, who is a stagecoach driver (a profession which disappeared in Dickens's own lifetime).

[Cinisajoy]

Originally Posted by HarryT

He isn't German. He's a Cockney - a Londoner . Dickens spent hours walking around London, and tried to accurately reproduce the speech he heard, particularly that of working people such as Mr Weller in the above passage, who is a stagecoach driver (a profession which disappeared in Dickens's own lifetime).

Interesting.
Is it possible in reproducing the speech, Mr Dickens had originally run across an immigrant stagecoach driver?
Or not knowing English customs worth a darn, was stagecoach driving a lower, middle or higher class job?

Now one might argue that while the stagecoach has disappeared, drivers of others still exist.
The vehicles just changed.
I know the stagecoach here in America was largely replaced by the railroad.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by Cinisajoy

Interesting.
Is it possible in reproducing the speech, Mr Dickens had originally run across an immigrant stagecoach driver?

No, that's the way that working-class Cockneys spoke (and, to a large extent, still do today), reversing "W" and "V" and dropping a lot of final sounds from words.

Or not knowing English customs worth a darn, was stagecoach driving a lower, middle or higher class job?

It was a very, very skilled "lower-class" job, and Mr Weller, in the book, regards himself as being among the "aristocracy" of working-class people. He would have been one of the extremely few people at the time who travelled widely; most people never went more than a few miles from where they were born in their whole lives.

Now one might argue that while the stagecoach has disappeared, drivers of others still exist.
The vehicles just changed.
I know the stagecoach here in America was largely replaced by the railroad.

Absolutely. Exactly the same happened in England. In Dickens's early books, people travel around by stagecoach, but in his later books they use trains.

[Rizla]

It's funny. I "get" Shakespeare without too much trouble, but Dickens confuses me sometimes. I recall reading the Christmas Carol and finding it hard. Wierd.

[Cinisajoy]

Originally Posted by HarryT

No, that's the way that working-class Cockneys spoke (and, to a large extent, still do today), reversing "W" and "V" and dropping a lot of final sounds from words.



It was a very, very skilled "lower-class" job, and Mr Weller, in the book, regards himself as being among the "aristocracy" of working-class people. He would have been one of the extremely few people at the time who travelled widely; most people never went more than a few miles from where they were born in their whole lives.



Absolutely. Exactly the same happened in England. In Dickens's early books, people travel around by stagecoach, but in his later books they use trains.

Thanks for the English lesson.

[Froide]

Originally Posted by Cinisajoy

Now for some old time "southern black English" dialect, might I recommend Uncle Remus.
That one needs to be read out loud to prevent trying to correct the English.

Sorry to be pedantic, but I think it's worth specifying that Uncle Remus stories are told in the Deep South Gullah dialect (aka "Geechee" dialect) that slaves spoke on slave plantations, which differs from other "southern black English" dialects.

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by HarryT

No, that's the way that working-class Cockneys spoke (and, to a large extent, still do today), reversing "W" and "V" and dropping a lot of final sounds from words.

Hmph. I freely admit, I'd never noticed this, which surprises me. I've been around a lot of Londoners from that end of town (when in horses; Cockneys for whatever reason seem to immigrate to the States in large-ish numbers around certain breeds of horses--not all). I'm sitting here replaying speech I've heard, in my head, and never noticed the w-v. Dang. Sherlock Holmes would have to fire me for inattention!

It was a very, very skilled "lower-class" job, and Mr Weller, in the book, regards himself as being among the "aristocracy" of working-class people. He would have been one of the extremely few people at the time who travelled widely; most people never went more than a few miles from where they were born in their whole lives.

Interestingly enough, this pattern is somewhat repeated today (about how a working-class Cockney might view his job and status), again, in the horse biz. I'd never thought about that, either--not that way--and it's interesting to me, Harry.

Absolutely. Exactly the same happened in England. In Dickens's early books, people travel around by stagecoach, but in his later books they use trains.

I'm trying to remember where it was--which book--that I first encountered dialect in any substantive form. I suspect it was, indeed, Twain; although by the time I was 12, I was reading Dickens as well, and the summer before I was 12, I was reading GWTW. All have dialect to some extent or the other, so the sequence wouldn't much matter, as within a few years, Twain coming much earlier, I'd have read all of those, and been well into Dickens' works.

I don't remember struggling with Dickens. Doesn't mean it didn't happen. Just means, it was so long ago--<mumble> years--that I've killed off those brain cells. :-)

Hitch

[Gregg Bell]

Originally Posted by Hitch

Just to be clear--I never meant that DIALOGUE by characters has to be "grammatically perfect." It has to be readable, and not get in the way. I abhor dialect, for example, when an inexperienced writer feels compelled (historical romances set in Scotland spring instantly to mind) to inflict "dinna" and "ken" and whatever on the reader, rather than dropping it in early and allowing the reader to "hear" it in his/her head as the narrative goes.

The sentence that you, Gregg put in front of us is one of those sentences; yes, it's (apparently) internal dialogue, but when it's internal dialogue, I generally want it to be at least not grammatically incorrect in such a way that I instantly notice it. For example, if a character continuously says "Bert and me," (rather than Bert and I, when needed), of course I expect him to THINK that way. It would be discordant if he didn't.

But to me, that's different than the sentence that started this discussion/thread. To me, the original sentence was simply wrong. It would have distracted me.

It's also pretty typical that writers are very staunch defenders of the idea that "grammatically perfect" writing = bad. It's certainly something that I see at our office, and an idea that I hear repeated constantly at the KDP Boards. Of course, that's where the infamous thread about how ellipses were for abrupt breaks in dialogue and emdashes meant "trailing off," too, so...y'know. Take that for what it's worth.

Hitch

I agree, Hitch. You don't want the reader to stumble for any reason.

[Gregg Bell]

Originally Posted by HarryT

Could be internet-speak.

Hated the Dickens's dialect example. (Not the eg. but they way it read and no, didn't know "pison" was "poison.") Dialect is the riskiest of businesses. When it's right it's fantastic but it's so easily wrong.

I think Tom Wolfe is a genius with the way he uses dialect. Esp. his The Bonfire of the Vanities.

[Gregg Bell]

Originally Posted by Rizla

It's funny. I "get" Shakespeare without too much trouble, but Dickens confuses me sometimes. I recall reading the Christmas Carol and finding it hard. Wierd.

Funny, Rizla. I'm the opposite. I for the life of me can't get Shakespeare. It's like someone once said of Djuna Barnes' writing:

It's like reading a foreign language which you understand.

[Rizla]

I kinda found Dickens just too damn long as well. It was like where is this thing Going? Its interesting because he wrote the books in weekly episodes so he had no chance to go back and edit. Anyway, Ill probably get into him one day. I find most of the stuff from that time too long and slow. Especially Hardy. *shudder*

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by Rizla

I kinda found Dickens just too damn long as well. It was like where is this thing Going? Its interesting because he wrote the books in weekly episodes so he had no chance to go back and edit. Anyway, Ill probably get into him one day. I find most of the stuff from that time too long and slow. Especially Hardy. *shudder*

Well....you can think of him as the original Irwin Allen, really. You have all these unconnected characters, going about their daily lives, having this and that happen, and then, ka-blammo!, somehow, they all end up in the same elevator (oops, wrong story line), rather, same plaza or whatever at the end. He ties up a boatload of loose ends, smidgen story lines, major storylines, etc. in his wrap-up.

So...yes, they do tend to wander about a bit. Reading some of the classics is one of those disciplines for which I'm glad that the nuns, etc., made time to force us to do. It's worthwhile, when you do it, and it gives you the depth and breadth to enjoy reading them later. IMHO.

Hitch

[dgatwood]

I would punctuate it it like this:

Wasn’t he being a bit of an alpha male—a bit of a king, perhaps?

The em dash creates a stronger separation than a comma, which makes it a good choice for an aside like "a bit of a king, perhaps". With that said, "a bit of a" seems unnecessarily repetitive, so I would probably change it to:

Wasn’t he being a bit of an alpha male—a king, perhaps?

or

Wasn’t he being a bit of an alpha male—like a king, perhaps?

I think the "perhaps" is fine.

Just my $0.02.