Future Thoughts on Getting Decent epub 3 support

[Turtle91]

Originally Posted by CalibUser

I would be very disappointed if book view was removed from Sigil; I often switch back and forwards between this mode and code view to check that the formatting of my books has a satisfactory appearance as I go along - it's very easy to quickly change a style when something does not look right. Without book view, it would be necessary to open the book in an ePub reader, identify changes that need to be made, re-open the ePub in Sigil and repeat the process. Even something as simple as checking spacing between lines, images, captions would take a lot more time without book view.

I am also thinking about this from the point of view of anybody who may be new to ePubs. When I was learning how to produce ePubs, I learnt a lot using Sigil. I was able to experiment with different css styles and immediately see the effects on my books.

Have you tried using the "Preview Pane"?? It is "Book View", but always up...either docked along the edge or full screen on a second display. It pretty much obviates the need for BV. Go to View in the menu and select "Preview" or you can toggle it on/off with F10.

[theducks]

Originally Posted by Turtle91

Have you tried using the "Preview Pane"?? It is "Book View", but always up...either docked along the edge or full screen on a second display. It pretty much obviates the need for BV. Go to View in the menu and select "Preview" or you can toggle it on/off with F10.

You can shrink the code explorer section at the bottom
The window undocks (mine lives on a old 768x1024 monitor mounted Portrait) leaving lots more room for the code

[BetterRed]

re PV v BV, I have much similar layout to Turtle91 - I can see the effect of changes immediately. I'd been using Sigil for about a year before I finally appreciated BV and PV weren't one and the same

BR

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by Turtle91

Have you tried using the "Preview Pane"?? It is "Book View", but always up...either docked along the edge or full screen on a second display. It pretty much obviates the need for BV. Go to View in the menu and select "Preview" or you can toggle it on/off with F10.

+1 for Preview Pane. It's terrific.

HOWEVER--and you've all heard me complain about Bookview before--I think that the copy-paste aspect of styled HTML and, for that matter, the ubiquitous Word files--needs to be addressed somehow (I personally like the idea of a paste option that could handle this, or a pop-up clipboard?). My desire to see BV go bye-bye is largely due to the sort of endless confusion, by new users who think it's Word with code, and want to be able to change Styles the same basic way. That, to my mind, is problematic.

But I don't want to vote to inadvertently remove a workflow mechanism from those who use it. If you're trying to copy-paste a webpage, or, again, Word, you do need the BV for that to work. So, if we nuke BV in favor of PV, then we should try to find a fairly easy alternative copy-paste method.

(On the Editing EPUBs article: I can't take a lot of that input seriously. Not to knock Julian's program, but Jutoh is not a Sigil nor Calibre-Editor replacement. I do know that there are commercial producers out there who use it, but...I couldn't. BlueGriffon? Sheesh. Some of those workflows described made my teeth hurt and my eyes cross--particularly the tortured one about putting a Word file into INDD, doing yadda, making print books, and then putting the SAME Word file into Jutoh and making ebooks. Talk about repetitive work! And what does she do when the Author decides that she needs 100 edits? URK. That's someone who isn't doing 100 books every month, that I can guarantee. You wouldn't do that more than once.).

That's my $.02 about BV, PV and copy-pasting. FWIW.

Hitch

[Notjohn]

Originally Posted by Hitch

+1 for Preview Pane. It's terrific.Hitch

Amen!

Originally Posted by Hitch

Some of those workflows described made my teeth hurt and my eyes cross--particularly the tortured one about putting a Word file into INDD, doing yadda, making print books, and then putting the SAME Word file into Jutoh and making ebooks. Talk about repetitive work! And what does she do when the Author decides that she needs 100 edits? URK. That's someone who isn't doing 100 books every month, that I can guarantee. You wouldn't do that more than once. Hitch

Aw, Hitch, you really know how to hurt a guy! My workflow is similar: a Word doc becomes an html file, and the html file becomes an epub; later, the same Word doc becomes the print edition via Open Office Writer (which I prefer because I can paginate in it, and because the PDF output is so clean). So, yes, I wind up with two base documents.

But of course I only do a couple books a year, and not always that many.

[DiapDealer]

Originally Posted by Notjohn

So, yes, I wind up with two base documents.

There's no such thing as two "base" documents. There's only two different documents whose contents haven't diverged from each other ... yet.

[CalibUser]

Originally Posted by Turtle91

Have you tried using the "Preview Pane"?? It is "Book View", but always up...either docked along the edge or full screen on a second display. It pretty much obviates the need for BV. Go to View in the menu and select "Preview" or you can toggle it on/off with F10.

I had forgotten about the Preview Panel! I haven't used this since I first tried it some time ago because I find it easier (clearer) to amend text directly in Book view (I don't think this can be done in the Preview Panel??). For example, when I need to correct a false paragraph ending in OCR'd text that has not been picked up by my plugin (https://www.mobileread.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=264378), it is easier to find these errors and directly join the errant paragraphs together using the Backspace key in Book view instead of using using code view where tags need to be deleted. Another example is where I look for split speeches - I find it easier to find these errors in Book view as opposed to Code view.

I also tend to produce new books by typing directly into book view; and this makes it easier to put in new paragraphs by just pressing the Return key. I apply formatting using the styles (eg italics) in the toolbar. In my opinion, the Book view mode makes the text easier to write, check and edit without having to 'stumble' over tags.

Originally Posted by theducks

You can shrink the code explorer section at the bottom
The window undocks (mine lives on a old 768x1024 monitor mounted Portrait) leaving lots more room for the code

Thanks for this tip - I wasn't aware of the fact that the preview panel undocks! I have just tried using the "Preview Pane" again but I still prefer Book view for editing purposes.

Although it is possible to edit a book in code view I find that the presence of the tags make this a more time-consuming process because the tags reduce the clarity of the text and leads to errors.

[DiapDealer]

Although it is possible to edit a book in code view I find that the presence of the tags make this a more time-consuming process because the tags reduce the clarity of the text and leads to errors.

Though it can certainly be perceived as "easier;" nine times out of ten, it is the editing in Book View that more often leads to errors (or at the very least, unforeseen/unwanted code changes) rather than the other way 'round. Mainly because you have no real way of knowing where you're actually placing the cursor in the underlying "real" document when making edits in Book View's rendered representation of the document.

Regardless of the fate of Book View in the long run, I'd still encourage everyone to make as few edits to existing documents in Book View as possible. You'll only be saving yourself potential future heartache. Using Book View for the wholesale pasting of new content is, of course, a different story.

[Arios]

Though it can certainly be perceived as "easier;" nine times out of ten, it is the editing in Book View that more often leads to errors...

True!

And this is why in my post # 2 I suggested, if and only if necessary, to get rid of BV.

And I repeated: it seems at first a gift of gods but after a while it implies a lack of control over codes and above all with most eReaders, epubs files will look different than BV anyway.

So it returns its main value to the habits acquired with word processing.

[HarryT]

Would there perhaps be any mileage in making "BookView" a read-only view rather than a window which permitted editing? That would still allow those who wished to use it to copy from to do so, while (perhaps?) simplifying the pain of two-way sync between BookView and CodeView.

[Arios]

But Harry what would be then the "raison d'être" of Preview?

If it exists (the raison d'être), we simply need a copy / paste function?

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by Arios

But Harry what would be then the "raison d'être" of Preview?

If it exists (the raison d'être), we simply need a copy / paste function?

With a read-only BV there would, as you suggest, be no necessity for Preview.

[theducks]

Preview has the ability to examine what the resultant style values are the result of a cascade for any block. Can be handy analysis for complex styling that is going wrong

[Turtle91]

Originally Posted by CalibUser

... it is easier to find these errors and directly join the errant paragraphs together using the Backspace key in Book view instead of using using code view where tags need to be deleted. Another example is where I look for split speeches - I find it easier to find these errors in Book view as opposed to Code view.

It is just as easy to find this using PV. When you are scrolling down the PV and find an error, click on it...it automagically moves the CV to the corresponding location. Being able to see which <tags> are being selected is actually a big plus...it keeps you from inadvertently forgetting to clear a tag, or worse yet, clearing too many tags!

Originally Posted by CalibUser

I also tend to produce new books by typing directly into book view; and this makes it easier to put in new paragraphs by just pressing the Return key. I apply formatting using the styles (eg italics) in the toolbar. In my opinion, the Book view mode makes the text easier to write, check and edit without having to 'stumble' over tags.

I'm sorry. And I do mean it in the nicest possible way. I would highly recommend using a full-featured word processor to actually write your books. BV is not meant to do all the cool things that authors need when pouring their brains out onto "paper". Once you are "finished", then you can use any number of methods to import that chapter/book into Sigil for final cleaning.

There are very few tags that an author needs to know about:
paragraph - <p></p>
emphasis (italics) - <em></em>
strong (bold) - <strong></strong>
headers (Chapter/Part) - <h1></h1> thru <h6></h6>
division (section or non-paragraph) - <div></div>
block quotes - <blockquote></blockquote>
special groups of characters - <span></span>


That's pretty much it. Learning how to style them using css is a "little" more involved. If you don't understand css then giving a professional a clean manuscript with just the above tags would make things MUCH faster/easier.

Cheers,

[Turtle91]

Also...

It is the exact same process to "apply formatting using the styles (eg italics) in the toolbar" in CV mode as in BV...highlight the word(s), click the button.