Future Thoughts on Getting Decent epub 3 support - Page 2

RbnJrg · 10-28-2015, 03:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theducks

Have you explored using 'View source (code)" in your WEB browser?

Yes, but I use the source code view of my browser only when I want to copy the full page and sometimes even in those case I didn't use it because is very obscure -see for example the source code of this page:

http://www.lanacion.com.ar/1840551-l...es-infecciosas

So many times it's by far more easy to copy and paste or using the plugin (for Chrome or Firefox) "GrabMyBooks" to make an epub from web pages (but this last one has issues to conserve the format).

KevinH · 10-28-2015, 03:40 PM

Hi Toxaris,

Good point! I had never tried copying and pasting from a browser into a BookView before and it does do a nice job of preserving things especially when there is Javascript and other stuff flying all around in the source code underneath.

Perhaps adding a paste window that is like a mini BV just for copying and pasting might prove useful and when it is copied the underlying source is put on the clipboard ready to be pasted into some CV document.

Interesting Ideas !

Thanks,

KevinH

KevinH · 10-28-2015, 03:42 PM

Hi All,

Just a reminder, that no one will be rushing to remove anything from Sigil. This is more a fact-finding for future directions and desired features.

Kevin

Turtle91 · 10-28-2015, 07:35 PM

Couldn't a right-click bring up an option to "Paste (keep formatting)"?? The code is already there in the BV section - isn't it?? Couldn't that be moved to a right-click menu function in CV??

Notjohn · 10-29-2015, 05:51 AM

I used (and blessed) Book View the other day when I wanted a quick & dirty printout of my text for copyediting. I opened up BV, copied it to clipboard, pasted it into Word, and voila! It didn't seem to work in Preview Pane, and of course I didn't want the html tags.

Arios · 10-29-2015, 09:30 AM

"The dust and the cloud"

It is certainly possible to design the Sigil development as follows: start with the specific functions it already has, or we'd like to see, and then go to the general objectives we want it to achieve.

However by doing the reverse (from general to specific), one could discover a guideline for establishing the priorities according to available resources, the software's strengths/weakness and the needs of its core users.

Even if my post seems quite presumptuous, I do not pretend to know what might be the objectives, the vision behind the development of Sigil. Right now, the inclusion of Python plugins and a foreseeable greatest support for epub3 are going imho in the right (and probably inevitable!) direction.

Another element of this "vision" could be to identify and optimize the role of Sigil in different workflows: for example, how can Sigil integrate into a professional workflow?

Anyway, interesting ideas, with some unjustified criticism, can be found here: http://epubsecrets.com/editing-epubs-post-sigil.php if you have not already read this slightly old page (april 2014- june 2015).

The most interesting part of the discussion is at the very bottom of the page (between Joshua Tallent and skreutzer, june 2015).

The skreutzer's arguments are hard to beat.

DiapDealer · 10-29-2015, 10:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arios

The skreutzer's arguments are hard to beat.

His logic is sound, but I fear that logic is predicated on faulty (or invalid) data: namely that Sigil can't (or doesn't) produce "good" epub2s. Sigil can be used (right now) to produce perfectly valid and spec-compliant epub2s. So I fail to see why it (Sigil) needs to focus on "fixing" its epub2 output before moving on to adding epub3 support.

The fact that Sigil allows a user the latitude to create/save a non-spec-compliant epub isn't really relevant. In fact, if anything, it's a positive in my book. Many devices/apps out there have non-spec quirks. And while idealistic wishes for a non-proprietary epub-creation ecosystem filled with scapel-like tools that can be easily integrated into professional workflows is admirable, some people just want to make their epubs look the way they want on their devices. Skreutzer's goals are just not perfectly aligned with Sigil's, that's all. And that's OK in my opinion.

KevinH · 10-29-2015, 12:39 PM

Hi,

It seems no-one in that discussion is up to speed on what Sigil can do now. They don't seem to understand that with the advent of python plugins, you can work Sigil into you workflow in any number of ways. They also don't seem to understand that things like Epub Optimizer and epub3-itizer are now out there to help with making better epub2 and even basic epub3s.

Oh well.

KevinH

Arios · 10-29-2015, 12:41 PM

I agree with you DiapDealer, but I had in mind this kind of "arguments", in the context of the J. Tallent's reply (June 26, 2015 at 9:54 am) :

Quote:

Don’t you think that’s circular? Sigil developers don’t work on it professionally, because – people rather spend their money on proprietary software instead. If money would be invested into Sigil, more effort would be put into it, there would be a concrete plan for sure, and more issues would get fixed. While the result would still be freely licensed.

skreutzer
June 30, 2015 at 5:07 am

KevinH · 10-29-2015, 01:05 PM

Hi Arios,

The reason we do not work on it professionally is not in any way related on what people spend their money on. I could care less what people spend their hard earned money on. The issue is that most commercial software is bug ridden (see the intro of Office 2016 for the Mac, complaints about Oracle databases, long standing bugs in Microsoft Office that no one bothers to fix, etc, etc,) with no real way to get changes made or bugs actually fixed.

With open source software, you can scratch your own itch so to speak. If a bug exists you can publicly report it and a test case and get it fixed (have you ever seen public bug databases for commercial software - they are few and far between). I volunteer my time for Sigil, because I like using it and wanted to add a few features to make it more useful to me (and hopefully others). I do not do it professionally because I used to develop software professionally but retired from it long ago. I am now much happier being a university Professor who researches using econometric methods, teaches Business Analytics, and who loves ebooks and reading and likes to program for the fun of it.

All of that said, given a choice of a production system using open source software vs proprietary software, I would always choose open source so that I could control every aspect of what I am doing, and can fix bugs that actually impact me without waiting for some company to admit their mistake and possibly spend years fixing the bug.

I guess most people simply do not understand the motivations for why people volunteer for open source software, nor do they understand the reasons why open source software is now being used to power most of the projects out there.

I have been volunteering my time on open source projects for over 25 years including the first Mach Microkernel port of Linux that Apple did, linux kernel graphic driver bug fixes, supporting powerpc Linux, porting the original Java Development Kit to Linux (the Blackdown Project), OpenOffice ppc C++ bridges to Java, C, python, the OpenOffice lingucomponent project, MySpell, small patches for R-project, and now Sigil. I do it to keep my old programming skills from getting too rusty and to keep learning new things.

So give me open source software over proprietary anytime. With Open Source, I can always either do it myself, or hire someone to make the changes I need if I can't.

KevinH

DiapDealer · 10-29-2015, 01:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arios

I agree with you DiapDealer, but I had in mind this kind of "arguments", in the context of the J. Tallent's reply (June 26, 2015 at 9:54 am) :

It's a nice sentiment, I agree. I'm just not sure it's particularly true (or always true anyway).

In the case of Sigil, neither one of us are even accepting donations at this point. i won't speak for Kevin (especially seeing as he's already responded while I typed!), but my reasoning is because i find the work a rewarding enough hobby without compensation (and because I'm a long-time Sigil user). And even if we were to start, I'm not sure more money would change our time spent on Sigil, nor its development pace. I, myself, would never want my work on Sigil to ever approach feeling like a "job." So compensation for it would make me uncomfortable.

Perhaps sometime in the future, I'll set up a list of charitable organizations so that people who want to show their appreciation may do so that way.

eschwartz · 10-29-2015, 01:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KevinH

Hi,

It seems no-one in that discussion is up to speed on what Sigil can do now. They don't seem to understand that with the advent of python plugins, you can work Sigil into you workflow in any number of ways. They also don't seem to understand that things like Epub Optimizer and epub3-itizer are now out there to help with making better epub2 and even basic epub3s.

Oh well.

KevinH

No, they don't seem to understand that there is actually no such thing as a true WYSIWYW editor -- which is why EPUB3 (and EPUB2) require more work than simply automagically Save As EPUB3.

Quote:

while Sigil can support the creation of an EPUB 3 file [...] that does not mean that it will actually create a good quality EPUB 3 file.

And Tallent is upset that Sigil has "no apparent concrete plans for development releases" whereas InDesign is "actively working on the EPUB export".

Haters gotta hate.

I'll consider him a troll for now.
At least until someone shows me a post where he actually says what he thinks Sigil should be doing differently. Since he has so many good ideas and all...

Arios · 10-30-2015, 11:18 AM

Kevin and DiapDealer, thank you for sharing these personal and ethical information (post #25, 26) which show your dedication to the community: you are men of honor!

(Now, I feel so much selfish and lazy

).

The general idea that I get from the mentioned page (editing-epubs-post-sigil), is that some "pro" have not enough fair-play for intervene here to propose solutions, ideas or requests to improve Sigil. A bit like if they preferred depend on the goodwill of the big players (Adobe and other). This seems rather "amateur" like attitude to me.

Anyway, I would stress again two things: 1) I like Sigil very much and uses it nearly every day; 2) I firmly believe that Sigil must stay alive, so thanks again for doing so.

BetterRed · 11-04-2015, 07:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

Perhaps sometime in the future, I'll set up a list of charitable organizations so that people who want to show their appreciation may do so that way.

Speaking for myself. I'd rather give something (money via paypal is easiest) to the Sigil developer's as a personal appreciation of their efforts - i.e. it's a gift, not a donation.

What they do with the gift is entirely up to them.

If you were to draw up a list of charitable organisations it would need to have global brand recognition. Example: CARE and Oxfam, do not have much presence beyond the Anglosphere and some Northern European countries.

BR

CalibUser · 11-07-2015, 02:35 PM

I would be very disappointed if book view was removed from Sigil; I often switch back and forwards between this mode and code view to check that the formatting of my books has a satisfactory appearance as I go along - it's very easy to quickly change a style when something does not look right. Without book view, it would be necessary to open the book in an ePub reader, identify changes that need to be made, re-open the ePub in Sigil and repeat the process. Even something as simple as checking spacing between lines, images, captions would take a lot more time without book view.

I am also thinking about this from the point of view of anybody who may be new to ePubs. When I was learning how to produce ePubs, I learnt a lot using Sigil. I was able to experiment with different css styles and immediately see the effects on my books.

10-28-2015, 03:42 PM	#18
KevinH Sigil Developer Posts: 8,508 Karma: 5703586 Join Date: Nov 2009 Device: many	Hi All, Just a reminder, that no one will be rushing to remove anything from Sigil. This is more a fact-finding for future directions and desired features. Kevin Last edited by KevinH; 10-29-2015 at 11:48 AM.

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10-28-2015, 03:40 PM	#17
KevinH Sigil Developer Posts: 8,508 Karma: 5703586 Join Date: Nov 2009 Device: many	Hi Toxaris, Good point! I had never tried copying and pasting from a browser into a BookView before and it does do a nice job of preserving things especially when there is Javascript and other stuff flying all around in the source code underneath. Perhaps adding a paste window that is like a mini BV just for copying and pasting might prove useful and when it is copied the underlying source is put on the clipboard ready to be pasted into some CV document. Interesting Ideas ! Thanks, KevinH

10-28-2015, 07:35 PM	#19
Turtle91 A Hairy Wizard Posts: 3,321 Karma: 20171571 Join Date: Dec 2012 Location: Charleston, SC today Device: iPhone 15/11/X/6/iPad 1,2,Air & Air Pro/Surface Pro/Kindle PW & Fire	Couldn't a right-click bring up an option to "Paste (keep formatting)"?? The code is already there in the BV section - isn't it?? Couldn't that be moved to a right-click menu function in CV??

10-29-2015, 05:51 AM	#20
Notjohn mostly an observer Posts: 1,518 Karma: 987654 Join Date: Dec 2012 Device: Kindle	I used (and blessed) Book View the other day when I wanted a quick & dirty printout of my text for copyediting. I opened up BV, copied it to clipboard, pasted it into Word, and voila! It didn't seem to work in Preview Pane, and of course I didn't want the html tags.

10-29-2015, 09:30 AM	#21
Arios A curiosus lector! Posts: 463 Karma: 2015140 Join Date: Jun 2012 Device: Sony PRS-T1, Kobo Touch	"The dust and the cloud" It is certainly possible to design the Sigil development as follows: start with the specific functions it already has, or we'd like to see, and then go to the general objectives we want it to achieve. However by doing the reverse (from general to specific), one could discover a guideline for establishing the priorities according to available resources, the software's strengths/weakness and the needs of its core users. Even if my post seems quite presumptuous, I do not pretend to know what might be the objectives, the vision behind the development of Sigil. Right now, the inclusion of Python plugins and a foreseeable greatest support for epub3 are going imho in the right (and probably inevitable!) direction. Another element of this "vision" could be to identify and optimize the role of Sigil in different workflows: for example, how can Sigil integrate into a professional workflow? Anyway, interesting ideas, with some unjustified criticism, can be found here: http://epubsecrets.com/editing-epubs-post-sigil.php if you have not already read this slightly old page (april 2014- june 2015). The most interesting part of the discussion is at the very bottom of the page (between Joshua Tallent and skreutzer, june 2015). The skreutzer's arguments are hard to beat.

10-29-2015, 12:39 PM	#23
KevinH Sigil Developer Posts: 8,508 Karma: 5703586 Join Date: Nov 2009 Device: many	Hi, It seems no-one in that discussion is up to speed on what Sigil can do now. They don't seem to understand that with the advent of python plugins, you can work Sigil into you workflow in any number of ways. They also don't seem to understand that things like Epub Optimizer and epub3-itizer are now out there to help with making better epub2 and even basic epub3s. Oh well. KevinH

10-29-2015, 01:05 PM	#25
KevinH Sigil Developer Posts: 8,508 Karma: 5703586 Join Date: Nov 2009 Device: many	Hi Arios, The reason we do not work on it professionally is not in any way related on what people spend their money on. I could care less what people spend their hard earned money on. The issue is that most commercial software is bug ridden (see the intro of Office 2016 for the Mac, complaints about Oracle databases, long standing bugs in Microsoft Office that no one bothers to fix, etc, etc,) with no real way to get changes made or bugs actually fixed. With open source software, you can scratch your own itch so to speak. If a bug exists you can publicly report it and a test case and get it fixed (have you ever seen public bug databases for commercial software - they are few and far between). I volunteer my time for Sigil, because I like using it and wanted to add a few features to make it more useful to me (and hopefully others). I do not do it professionally because I used to develop software professionally but retired from it long ago. I am now much happier being a university Professor who researches using econometric methods, teaches Business Analytics, and who loves ebooks and reading and likes to program for the fun of it. All of that said, given a choice of a production system using open source software vs proprietary software, I would always choose open source so that I could control every aspect of what I am doing, and can fix bugs that actually impact me without waiting for some company to admit their mistake and possibly spend years fixing the bug. I guess most people simply do not understand the motivations for why people volunteer for open source software, nor do they understand the reasons why open source software is now being used to power most of the projects out there. I have been volunteering my time on open source projects for over 25 years including the first Mach Microkernel port of Linux that Apple did, linux kernel graphic driver bug fixes, supporting powerpc Linux, porting the original Java Development Kit to Linux (the Blackdown Project), OpenOffice ppc C++ bridges to Java, C, python, the OpenOffice lingucomponent project, MySpell, small patches for R-project, and now Sigil. I do it to keep my old programming skills from getting too rusty and to keep learning new things. So give me open source software over proprietary anytime. With Open Source, I can always either do it myself, or hire someone to make the changes I need if I can't. KevinH Last edited by KevinH; 10-29-2015 at 01:07 PM.

10-30-2015, 11:18 AM	#28
Arios A curiosus lector! Posts: 463 Karma: 2015140 Join Date: Jun 2012 Device: Sony PRS-T1, Kobo Touch	Kevin and DiapDealer, thank you for sharing these personal and ethical information (post #25, 26) which show your dedication to the community: you are men of honor! (Now, I feel so much selfish and lazy ). The general idea that I get from the mentioned page (editing-epubs-post-sigil), is that some "pro" have not enough fair-play for intervene here to propose solutions, ideas or requests to improve Sigil. A bit like if they preferred depend on the goodwill of the big players (Adobe and other). This seems rather "amateur" like attitude to me. Anyway, I would stress again two things: 1) I like Sigil very much and uses it nearly every day; 2) I firmly believe that Sigil must stay alive, so thanks again for doing so.

11-07-2015, 02:35 PM	#30
CalibUser Addict Posts: 202 Karma: 62362 Join Date: Jul 2015 Device: Sony	I would be very disappointed if book view was removed from Sigil; I often switch back and forwards between this mode and code view to check that the formatting of my books has a satisfactory appearance as I go along - it's very easy to quickly change a style when something does not look right. Without book view, it would be necessary to open the book in an ePub reader, identify changes that need to be made, re-open the ePub in Sigil and repeat the process. Even something as simple as checking spacing between lines, images, captions would take a lot more time without book view. I am also thinking about this from the point of view of anybody who may be new to ePubs. When I was learning how to produce ePubs, I learnt a lot using Sigil. I was able to experiment with different css styles and immediately see the effects on my books.