The Guardian click-bait - Get real. Terry Pratchett is not a literary genius

[shalym]

Originally Posted by gmw

My definition of a "literary" work is similar: it is a work in which the prose (the specific choice of phrasing, metaphor and so on) is at least as important as the outward or apparent meaning of the prose. Like poetry, a true literary work paints a feeling or imagery using words that might be quite distinct from the meaning of the words themselves.

Can you give an example of a book or story that you consider a "true literary work"? I'm trying to imagine how words themselves could cause feelings that would be distinct from the meaning of the words.

Shari

[gmw]

Originally Posted by shalym

Can you give an example of a book or story that you consider a "true literary work"? I'm trying to imagine how words themselves could cause feelings that would be distinct from the meaning of the words.

Shari

I've picked a couple of quotes that happen to come from one of my least favourite books: Moby Dick by Herman Melville.

From the opening of the book we get this:

November in my soul; whenever I find myself involuntarily pausing before coffin warehouses, and bringing up the rear of every funeral I meet; and especially whenever my hypos get such an upper hand of me, that it requires a strong moral principle to prevent me from deliberately stepping into the street, and methodically knocking people's hats off—then, I account it high time to get to sea as soon as I can.

The words would seem express anger and depression, and yet there is a sense of fun or amusement in the way they are expressed that gives the reader quite different feeling. (Or is that just me?)

The following isn't quite the same thing but it's a favourite quote and shows that what the words say and what we are to understand in the context of the story may be quite different things.

He piled upon the whale's white hump the sum of all the general rage and hate felt by his whole race from Adam down; and then, as if his chest had been a mortar, he burst his hot heart's shell upon it.

Most fiction uses metaphor and simile to some extent, but literary fiction (as I define it) tends to stray further from literal interpretations than would be acceptable in non-literary works. And this is one of the reasons why I chose Moby Dick as an example - there are lots of less obvious, and less easy to quote, examples of (possible) meanings layered into this book. Take a look a the Themes section of the Wikipedia article for some brief discussion. Yes, much non-literary fiction has themes, but these are typically less deliberate, or more obviously an element of the story, as opposed to something layered into the way the story is constructed and told.

[tompe]

But in both example you are using the meaning of the words.

[gmw]

Originally Posted by tompe

But in both example you are using the meaning of the words.

I accept that my example is not perfect. Literary fiction is rarely so lacking subtlety that quoting a single paragraph will give it away. If you take a look at that Wikipedia link you will see comments like:

One of the early critics of the Melville Revival, British author E.M. Forster, remarked in 1927: "Moby-Dick is full of meanings: its meaning is a different problem."[16] Yet he saw as "the essential" in the book "its prophetic song," which flows "like an undercurrent" beneath the surface action and morality.

From what I've read of Melville, much of what is said of his work is in response to a deliberate attempt at literary allusion by the author; things he was trying to say without saying them directly. This, for me, marks the work as a literary one.

Generally I prefer such meaning in books to be less obtuse. It's one of the reasons why I like Pratchett's work, especially once you get well into the Discword series. Each book contains a great story with mystery and drama, and each carries Pratchett's humour in what he sees in the world (the Discworld and this one) - and these remain the focus - but not far beneath that are more serious statements of morality. In some respects I see him a little like Charles Dickens in this way. And, like Dickens, all these things are elements of the story he is telling; they aren't hidden messages for which the story is just a construct to hide them, they are an integral part of the story.

[Teknikal]

To be fair I'm a UK citizen and I did really give Pratchett a chance (on two occasions) I just don't find his stuff funny, I'm sorry he's dead of course but I see no reason to lie just because of it as truthfully I've read far funnier better storylined books by other authors.

[eschwartz]

Originally Posted by Teknikal

To be fair I'm a UK citizen and I did really give Pratchett a chance (on two occasions) I just don't find his stuff funny, I'm sorry he's dead of course but I see no reason to lie just because of it as truthfully I've read far funnier better storylined books by other authors.

Nobody is asking you to say you liked his books just because he died. People have different tastes, and that's all right...


(P.S. What does it have to do with where you live? )

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by eschwartz

(P.S. What does it have to do with where you live? )

Humour can be suited to national tastes. A number of popular British comedy TV shows have fallen flat in the US because they haven't appealed to the US market, and many American TV shows are rather too "in your face" for British tastes. So it is reasonable to mention that the reader is British, but Pratchett still doesn't appeal.

[eschwartz]

Hmm, maybe. I'll note, though, that Pratchett has a tremendous US following as well, so it would appear his humor, at least, is not regional.

[doubleshuffle]

He is also very popular here in Germany.

[pynch]

Originally Posted by doubleshuffle

He is also very popular here in Germany.

I’m also very popular here in Germany, but that doesn’t mean I’m funny.

[tompe]

Originally Posted by Teknikal

To be fair I'm a UK citizen and I did really give Pratchett a chance (on two occasions) I just don't find his stuff funny, I'm sorry he's dead of course but I see no reason to lie just because of it as truthfully I've read far funnier better storylined books by other authors.

Can you give some examples? I am always on the lookout for funny books.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by Ralph Sir Edward

On the other hand, Final Blackout was a pulp S/F "classic"...

Some of the reviews I've read make this sound awful. But would it sell if it was written today? probably not.

[tompe]

Originally Posted by eschwartz

Hmm, maybe. I'll note, though, that Pratchett has a tremendous US following as well, so it would appear his humor, at least, is not regional.

Pratchett was much more popular in UK compared to US.

[Teknikal]

Originally Posted by tompe

Can you give some examples? I am always on the lookout for funny books.

The last kinda similar Pratchett style books I read which I found actually quite funny were the Wizard 2.0 series by Scott Meyer

Off to be the Wizard was the first one.

That said I don't read humor an awful lot so I'm probably the wrong person to ask,

As far as it goes though I do find darker humor funny I think my sense of humor is a little twisted and have found myself almost unable to breathe when reading through books like

"The alphabet of Manlyness" by Maddox,

"Emails from an A**hole* by John Lyndsay

"The Internet is a Playground" by David Thorne

Also I should be ashamed to admit really I find Tucker Max's books about his exploits fairly amusing.

For something less twisted though l have enjoyed a few Christopher Moore books they weren't super funny but definitely had their moments.

[MikeB1972]

Originally Posted by Teknikal

To be fair I'm a UK citizen and I did really give Pratchett a chance (on two occasions) I just don't find his stuff funny.

Well, in that case I'm sorry but there is no choice, you will be banished to Germany.

Edit - looks like they like him there as well, maybe Latvia?